I'm fine with giving this guy a wide than normal 3bet range here because he's aggressive, and because of the btn steal dynamic, and because he's in his 30's.

I don't hate a 4bet or a flat given that we think that he is wide and we are prepared to play this hand against him post flop without making a pair.
If we 4bet, I like a smaller 4bet, something along the lines of $65 as it gives us more room to bet 3 streets to move him off his hand if we need to / think we can post flop.

LMFAO at saying someone is 75/20 after only two orbits. I mean even if we have clickers in our hands and it's accurate, the numbers are completely useless.

And using that piece of nothing so assume he's 3betting light out of the blinds is even more of a leak.

So, shall we see a flop?

Fold pf

I have found players in this part of the country to be a bit more spewy/gambly than the average game. Stuff like older guys limp/3betting huge with 88, preflop shoving over an open with 77 in the hopes to get it in ahead of AK, younger guys 4betting the second time I decide to 3bet them. This particular game has a straddle on the button that brings out a lot of gambly types.

Why not.

Hero decides to flat.

$64 in after drop.

Flop T T 4.

Villain bets $45. Hero ???

We should have folded PF. Better late than never, though.

Lol...

Flat now and go for a shove ott.

Make sure you give off a good reverse tell...hands shaking usually.

Everything else so far is reasonable, but I have to push back on this a bit.

a) Counting to 15 and 4 over 20 VPIP opportunities is not that hard.
b) I disagree that it is "completely useless" to observe actions over your first two orbits. Our willingness to gather information is one of the traits that gives us an edge over villains who are sitting back and drinking their fourth beer.

how can you flat this hand which doesn't have enough equity against a tight 3 bet range?

We've spent 1.5 pages going back and forth on those points. Lots of posters have provided their reasoning. Don't see any need to continue beating that dead horse.

We're on to teh flop.

Fold otf

I mean it may become a call if he is raising 75% of hands but he is only raising 20?

As far as the flop is concerned, I saw a few things that made me interested in floating:

a) Tx should be in my r/c range more often than it should be in V's resteal range.
b) There are 3 turn cards that give me a backdoor straight draw.
c) My lack of playing hands up to this point may make a flop call look rather strong.

The biggest problems I saw with a float were:

a) Given his tendency to donk into the pfr in other hands, this guy might be a frequent barreler in these sort of spots.
b) I haven't seen him play any turn/rivers without the nuts, so I don't know if he has a fold button with mediocre hands. At this point I just know that he plays pretty loose pre.

I don't like a float here because he will accidentally have a balanced range on the turn and check both overpairs and missed overcards. A board that is a better float would be Jxx, Txx, ect. because he will most likely keep betting overpairs but check missed overcards in those spots. It's a spot with poor visibility and we'll be playing a guessing game as to which street he decides to check/fold AK/AQ instead of check/call.

We must be assuming he has more than AQ+ and overpairs when we call PF, though.

oki guess we really tryng to win here.

OBV line is to call flop bet, cause its dry and calling keeps in our whole range, we did bet call a 3! pf OOP, so he cant be ranging us only on AK+ type hand. We may not have a T in his range but we can have a hand thats not going to fold easily.

Call flop bet, regrardless of what happens turn, we have to either raise or bet 3/5 or so Pot to set up a huge bet on river.

ONly way i can us winning this hand.

I never said it was "completely useless" to pay attention and observe a player from the first hand we see them play.

I did say, however, that using that tiny tid bit spec of information to assume he's 3betting light from the blinds is ludicrous.

Until we see otherwise (a light 3bet from the blinds or other positions, or even ANY 3bet at all from him) we should use our default, that a llsnl unknown's 3bet out of the blinds it AA, KK, and sometimes QQ or AK.

75/20 is not aggressive. It's passive. He limps a lot preflop, that's not a sign of aggression at all. This is an even bigger reason to let it go.

These are two separate statements. The "And" that begins the second statement implies that observing the actions for the first two orbits is "completely useless" in general.

When we relate the 75 to the 20 then sure, we can say that this player has a large gap. Obviously he's not a winning player. But looking at the PFR in absolute terms, we can say that this player PFRs a lot more often than your average LLSNL villain. In most games we'll see a few weak tights at 20/1, a bunch of loose passive fish at 35/2 or 50/1, a few bad but not completely clueless 45/12s, and then the occasional player trying to lose their money quickly with 60/20 through 90/20ish. This guy also was frequently donk betting postflop. I don't see how you take all that and say that he's more passive than the average villain.

I have been thinking about this hand the entire time that we were $500 deep effective.
I'm pretty sure I like folding pre since we're only $300 deep.

Assuming we were $500 deep:
My plan originally was to raise the flop to $135 and cram most turn cards for ~$300 putting max pressure on his overpaid type hands.
Alternate plan was to flat the flop, shove over his turn bet if he bets, and make a decent sized bet ($140) on the turn if he checks, and shove most river cards.

But with only $230 left, it's a lot harder to turn this into a 2 street hand, and if he bets the turn I think we mostly have to just give up because we won't get him to fold his OP for the little extra that we'd be putting in on top.

So sigh fold the flop.

I'm guessing we could float here a lot and maybe (?) be profitable by betting non-big card turns if checked to us (and sometimes backing into the best hand on the turn, which I'd probably check behind). Ax hands will have a hard time continuing on the turn UI.

This is of course assuming he has a huge range of Ax/air hands, which is what we're assuming if we're calling preflop (which I'm not).

GcluelessNLnoobG

It's pretty clear that I said using that limited information to assume someone is 3betting light is what was useless, I don't see where I said it's useless to observe people. (The so was a type for to but that wouldn't have made a difference)

So whatever you thought I said, or perceived what I said, do not use two orbits to assume someone 3bets light when you haven't seen him 3bet at all yet. You need more information than you have at hand.

So when you say "even more of a leak," you're not saying that it's "even more of a leak" compared to a previous leak. Just that it's a leak by itself and you're not criticizing anything else.

Ok buddy.

ok let me break it down in simpler terms:

Leaks:

1) labeling someone as aggressive after playing with him for only two orbits after seeing him limp a lot and raise about 4 times
2) Assuming he's 3betting light out of the blinds (more of a leak than #1)