the reason you can flat flop is you are WA/WB whereas you'd probably want to to ship in AKos/AA on this flop

WA/WB is far less relevant when we have draw outs. I think you're thinking backwards here - AKo and AA are WA/WB here.

no way, AA/AK are up against potential draws which AKs is not

you sir, have it backwards because our FD is likely drawing to like 6 outs

AA is a clear raise/call otf fwiw

I dont really understand your comment 11t? are we trying to win villain 2 stack right? or just limit the damage? how are we ever going to win the max here if we dont start raising? there are a lot of cards that could kill our action on the turn IMO.

like there are 4 combos of hands that we are realistically behind in this scenario on the flop.

villain one really isn't a concern cause he has committed himself any way with his stacks size/vs pot size

ya but so is AKss, just have an aggressive image

This is a primary reason, let's remember V1 image.

Another reason for calling is to disguise our hand strength. At this stake level our PF and flop raises scream AK, which helps our opponents play error-free against us.

I would advocate a raise OTT.

yeah cause everyone just turbo mucks KQ KJ or some random spade draw here if we raise to 65 and there is now over 200 in the pot.

everyone's biggest complaint is no one ever folds at this level but everyone seems to refuse to exploit that when we have like less than the nuts and or we decide to slow play in spots where it just isn't needed.

i'm saying that AA/AK are clear raise/calls on the flop but that flatting AK with the fd is much more correct than flatting AA/AK which is not to say it is optimal.

V2 might have a FD or AK himself and if we flat the flop he will likely be committed on the turn so with our hand, in this particular case, I think getting it in on the turn might be best.

6 outs is more than AKo has when you get it in and you're behind. I stand by my earlier point.

Do we really believe villains can't call with a worse flush or K on this board on the flop? If that's the case then AA and AK are also WA/WB here and you shouldn't bet them either unless you believe V miraculously only continues with the nut flush draw.

of course they can ****ing call that isn't my point at all and we are more behind a set than we are ahead of a FD hence why we are "more" wa/wb here

I mean if you ship it in here every time, thats fine. whatever. but calling the flop isn't some lol donkey mistake.

Hero having both As and Ks is important, and leans me to call rather than raise OTF. Unless one of the V has 6s5s (1 combo), raising could easily fold lower flush draws. We are 20 minutes into the session and have no idea how the opponents play. Generally I give credit until proven otherwise.

Additionally, V2 appears more likely to be drawing. Raising the flop and folding V1 most likely folds V2.

See, I do the opposite, I want them to show me they can actually fold before I give them credit for being able to do so.

there is no way if we put in a small raise to 60-70 that anyone is EVER folding any FD after having already put in 25 OTF in a pot that is rapidly growing. That is just reasoning to play weak/passive in a big pot.

11t I agree that not raising the flop isn't a huge mistake but the reasoning given by some doesn't really make any sense.

like this is pretty much a slam dunk spot, and seems like the default line for some is to just call/call/call here which makes like no sense here. look what happened in the OP if hero goes on to win the hand he totally let villain 1 dictate how much money went into the pot in a spot that the hero should have total control of the pot size. I just dont get it.

the problem with raising is that you reopen betting and allow villain 1 to shut out villain 2. villain 1 isn't full stacked, and pot is huge already, we shouldnt be worried too much about him(its a cooler if he has us beat and it wont be hard to play for stacks vs him on a later street.)

by just calling we can string along the dead money from villain 2, who is deep and is in terrible shape vs v1 and hero.

wtf is the point of raising 70 bucks when the SPR allows for shipping it on the turn?

raising here anything less than 100 is bad

I am thinking its the other way around we should be trying to get the most of villain 2 stack in as possible and flatting is not the way to accomplish that. a lot of cards that improve our hand on the turn may shut down villain 1 or 2 if we flat so why not build a pot here? villain 1 isn't shoving over out raise nearly as often as you think here, he isn't really repping that much strenght with that bet size.

I think just to make the pot bigger and harder for villain 2 to fold to a ship honestly. I think i would usually raise to around a hundred as a default by really depends on my reads as far as how light I think villains will call or how easily they fold. my first reaction really was to just make it 145 put villain 1 AI and just let villain 2 figure it out but that prob fold a lot of hands out in practice.

I mean obv in this hand anything other than folding is gonna be +ev

Thanks again for the input. For those interested here are the results of the hands. I obviously shoved the river. I was confident at that point that I had V2 beat and thought the only hand V1 could have that wins would be 77.

Preflop Dealt AK OTB
6 limps, Hero raise to $13, 6 players call.

Flop - ($91) 7K4
Villain 1 Bets $25, Villain 2 Calls, all others fold, Hero Calls $25

Turn- ($166) 7K44
Villain 1 Bets $45, Villain 2 Calls, Hero Calls $45

River- ($301) 7K446
Villain 1 Bets AI ~$60, Villain 2 Calls, Hero Shoves, Villain 2 folds


V1 turned over K7s and V2 says he folded AKo so we scooped a really nice pot. While the end result was great I wasn't totally confident that I played the hand optimally, hence this thread. Not sure if we ever get more out of V2 and if so where and how.

If you raise the flop to 125, AK is not folding on an K74 flop with that SPR.


You could have had both stacks.

Maybe put just under or over enough to put V1 all in, don't put the EXACT amount of V1 all in that looks too strong

Definitely agree that you could have had both stacks. V2 is not folding to a flop raise, or a subsequent turn shove, and you're freerolling him if he's telling the truth. Meanwhile you have a big redraw against the shortstack V1.

This is why when we have a good made hand and a good redraw, it usually makes sense to raise the flop. Waiting for the flush to come in means that V2 was able to fold on the scare card because our hand looks like a flush. But if V2 had had a flush draw and the river had bricked, he would have just folded to V1's shove and we win nothing. Raising is the best way to maximize profit when we know we won't be folding.