Because if a fit/fold player calls turn he's calling river

I guess it depends on how strict our definition of "fit/fold" is. I think a lot of players would call turn with Tx but fold it OTR, but I see your point re: our read.

Game is playing passive, a bit loose, but not crazy. This was one of the few hands that were double straddled during the night, so don't get carried away that this is a double straddle.

Hero (Covers all) has a TAG image, was looked at as nitty I believe by UTG+1 (70bb) double straddler because I was card dead since he sat down. I have a pretty neutral image at this point, not bluffy. I am 23 years old fwiw. He is stuck 1.5 BI and noticed as a result is playing looser than normal and suboptimal. Prior to being stuck, he was actually playing pretty decently.

UTG (130bb): Old man, loose preflop, passive overall, fairly fit/fold post flop. Fairly unknown. I have seen him flat a flop CBet and fold to a double earlier. Limping a fair amount, playing mostly his cards.

BU (145bb): Tight preflop, straightforward postflop. I feel I have the effective button often here.

Utg straddle 2bb, UTG+1 straddle 3bb, folds around to hero in the CO with A9 hero raises 10bb, button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Nice result pre flop against the best customer given stack size for my hand. I raised 10BB because I wanted to have the initiative in position. I made it slightly on the small side so I had more maneuverability post flop on certain board textures.

Pot (24bb): Flop comes out 1055

Villain checks, Hero bets 14bb, villain thinks and calls.
I bet 14bb, just over 1/2 pot because I am doing this with basically my entire range. I want to have the option of barreling in certain spots, and betting the same as pre flop (10bb or so) felt like it looks like I missed the flop and have what I have. Betting too large however does make his calling range that much stronger, which is not what I want either.

(Pot: 52bb)Turn is the K
Villain checks, hero bets 28bb, villain thinks and calls.

Felt I would be able to take this down on the turn at east 40% of the time, which makes it profitable if my analysis is indeed correct.

(Pot: 108bb) River is the Q

Villain checks, Hero??

Villain has 80bb left.

I thought it was a pretty good run out for a triple barrel. Once he called the turn, I put him on a range heavily consisting of Tx, JJ, and occasional 5x.

Are you firing a bomb here? What is your value shoving range here? The reason I ask this is because I think it's important for it to be conceivable we aren't so polarized. Which (if any or all) of the following hands are you shoving as part of your value range here? It is assumed all boats and 3 of a kind is a easy shove.

1) AA
2) AK
3) KT
4) QT
5) KQ
6) Any other Kx

It would reallt depend on reads, but if I felt villain was more weighted towards 10x or JJ, I think I'd be content value shoving all but QT in this spot myself, read dependant of course.

Just on the off chance villain had floated with AK or actually has K10.

If I really trust my read, I'd happily shove all Kx and maybe AQ as well. You didn't list it but i'm obv shoving AJ for value as well.

The queen is a good card for doing it, but I'm still giving up on river. Once villain calls turn bet, they have less then pot sized bet left. Against your generic non-stationary passive fit/fold type, I expect their range to be mostly 5X when they call turn and those hands never give up river. If villain is stationary enough to show up with TX or medium pairs and call a river shove, then I might shove 1,2, 5 and 6. 3 and 4 have the problem that our ten reduces the chance villain has one, so their range has to be more 5X and I would be happy to check it down.

As played... Q is not a horrible card to barrel, but I think you're going to have to shove here. I'd be happier about it if we had checked back the flop or turn. Maybe Villain folds his T. I give up though. check/fold.

I don't think we can really expect to be called by worse with any of the value hands listed. I'm really tempted to just check them all back since I don't see how villain calls with worse, and I think Villain has 5x here most of the time.

Check turn/bet river is the worst possible line we can take imo. That line is good for value because fish call against it very light, so I wouldn't use it as a bluff. He'll never believe you have a T after you check the turn, and the fact that he has a chance to immediately showdown by calling your river bet (with no threat of another barrel) will often entice him to call. If I checked the turn it would be to just give up on the hand, and never bluff the river.

^^^This. He's pot committed calling the turn, he's not folding the river often enough to make a bet worthwhile.

yeah I give up OTR

Concur with giving up, unfortunately.

Weak pocket pair, possibly a 10. Definitely check here :/

if villain has a weak pocket pair, possibly a 10, it seems like another great opportunity to barrel, doesn't it?

I would never shove here.

This is a pretty clear check behind, IMO, because it's just so hard to see an average 1/2 villain call 2 streets with just Tx once a K hits the turn on a board with zero draws. His range is almost entirely 5x and JJ.

I actually don't mind a 3rd barrel here too much as long as it's small because, normally, this should be a good card for it (by normally, I mean against competent players). It is probably slightly -EV though but eh, who knows? A 35bb bet only needs to be good 25% of the time and looks really "value-town"-ish.

This is debatable. I can see described villain with 10x (huge chunk of his range) peeling turn and folding river. Unfortunately nowif he has Q10 were wamboozled

When the second barrel doesn't fold this guy out, I don't like firing the third. According to your read he should have folded by now.

I think P4MS unloads the clip, though.

Game is playing passive, a bit loose, but not crazy. This was one of the few hands that were double straddled during the night, so don't get carried away that this is a double straddle.

Hero (Covers all) has a TAG image, was looked at as nitty I believe by UTG+1 (70bb) double straddler because I was card dead since he sat down. I have a pretty neutral image at this point, not bluffy. I am 23 years old fwiw. He is stuck 1.5 BI and noticed as a result is playing looser than normal and suboptimal. Prior to being stuck, he was actually playing pretty decently.

UTG (130bb): Old man, loose preflop, passive overall, fairly fit/fold post flop. Fairly unknown. I have seen him flat a flop CBet and fold to a double earlier. Limping a fair amount, playing mostly his cards.

BU (145bb): Tight preflop, straightforward postflop. I feel I have the effective button often here.

Utg straddle 2bb, UTG+1 straddle 3bb, folds around to hero in the CO with A9 hero raises 10bb, button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Nice result pre flop against the best customer given stack size for my hand. I raised 10BB because I wanted to have the initiative in position. I made it slightly on the small side so I had more maneuverability post flop on certain board textures.

Pot (24bb): Flop comes out 1055

Villain checks, Hero bets 14bb, villain thinks and calls.
I bet 14bb, just over 1/2 pot because I am doing this with basically my entire range. I want to have the option of barreling in certain spots, and betting the same as pre flop (10bb or so) felt like it looks like I missed the flop and have what I have. Betting too large however does make his calling range that much stronger, which is not what I want either.

(Pot: 52bb)Turn is the K
Villain checks, hero bets 28bb, villain thinks and calls.

Felt I would be able to take this down on the turn at east 40% of the time, which makes it profitable if my analysis is indeed correct.

(Pot: 108bb) River is the Q

Villain checks, Hero shoves 80bb (villains effective stack).

Surprised of the consensus that checking was the best play here. I've been a lot less gunshy in these spots, each hand as a learning tool.

Villain tanks for about a minute or more and eventually cry calls. When he shows 56o I was very surprised he took that long to call. My goal was to get all but 5x and boats to fold, and I think my bet did just that. However, his turn call should suggest his hand is much stronger, and in game I didn't focus on this. My reasons for shoving were such that only 5x, TT were the only hands that would call a shove. During the hand I kept convincing myself that there were a very limited amount of combos he can call with. I failed to consider that his turn calling range is much stronger, including hands like JJ, AK, and 5x.

I want to get more feedback on people's river shoving range here.... Is AA a shove against this type of villain? How about AK, Kx? Anyone betting about 35-45bb with these instead?

Thank you all for playing.

I think you realize by now that Villain's range (after all actions up to river) is basically 5x. So while you were probably right that most everything else folds, the problem is that they make up a very small part of Villain's range.

It really tough to list my river shoving range without seeing a couple showdowns from our villain. I think 45bb is a great size that gets called by about all of his showdown hands without limiting it to AK / 5x / boats.

I'll admit that I really wanted to triple barrel this as well.. based on "passive post, folds to doubles" key reminder I'm taking away is passive villains will allow us to do the betting for them. They aren't thinking of all the combos of stuff we are triple blasting with. They just think "I have trips, he prob has AK or AA, but in case he has a boat, I'll check this river."

His river check really makes me want to bluff again for 45bb.

I think you played it well. OTT, V probably check-shoves the majority of his strong hands. I believe he folds to your river shove the vast majority of the time.

I think if a passive player calls a cbet on a paired flop like Txx, we have two alternatives:

1) go into shutdown mode.

Give him credit for a hand n try to check down.

2) fire a triple barrel to get him to fold overpairs n Tx hands.

In this example, I think it is a mistake to fire turn which leads to a river shove. Why?

At flop, the SPR is effectively about 5-6. Villain had already committed about 10% of his stack size preflop, meaning that he is around pot commitment threshold. Any flop cbet that he calls would means that he would be pot committed, making it less likely that he will fold any overpair type of hands.

Although the turn card seems to be a good barreling card (to make villain fold TP or JJ-QQ), I think that the hero should consider that once the villain call this pot committing turn bet, it is highly unlikely that villain is going to fold most river cards.

As such, I would think checking back turn n give up river is the best line here.

As mentioned above, his turn calling range is pretty narrow. Tx, JJ and QQ won't stick around after two barrels because of pot commitment. He just doesn't have a fold range on the river based on your fit/fold read post flop. The river shove is pure spew.

From his perspective, he really doesn't beat much more than AK that you could have. He has to call, but he's figuring he's outkicked a fair part of the time. Finally, this was as good a double barreling opportunity as it gets. If you're going to c/f the turn, you shouldn't double barreling anything.

I strongly disagree. What makes you think he understands the concept of pot commitment? I think some of you are over-thinking this; just pound on the fish.

(I've added 3 barreling to my game lately with much success. With a few execptions, I fire 3 times in a 3 handed or HU hand. It amazes me what these people will fold (if you're playing tight PF)).

Hi Meshanti, I think the OP mentioned that the villain is a straightforward, fit/fold player.

Given the way villain played this hand, he must have like his hand a lot. How often is he then going to fold given that we have shown so much aggression?

I also agree with you that most players do not understand about SPR and pot commitment threshold etc.

That is precisely why, given the way OP played, it is almost like trying to slowly suck the villain into the hand with 1/2 pot bets. If these players do not understand pot commitment and SPR, they will just call, thinking that they have "the odds to do so" without realising that they are already pot committed to a big pot. And when the pot is too big, they suddenly realised they cant fold because they are now really getting "good odds" to call the river shove with overpair or trips with poor kicker.

Seriously speaking, how many players are capable of folding to half pot size flop and turn cbets with AA overpair in this type of situation here? And when the pot become huge at river, how many players can fold AA when they almost always have 2:1 odds to call?