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Old 01-27-2016, 04:12 PM   #26
JIMMERZZZ
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

55$ preflop, go headsup with a guy who has had one too many drinks to be playing optimal but still has his wits about him. C-bet dry A 8 2 rainbow and take it down then have a swig of the JD.
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Old 01-27-2016, 04:14 PM   #27
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
It would be a real bummer to 3!/fold this beautiful hand deep and OTB. I'm inclined to raise something like K2s here looking to end the hand immediately, but T9s OTB gives us massive IO's so just call.
I agree with calling. Not only do we have lots of potential but we also have position. When we flat we just need to be looking to pick up the pot with out any real equity some of the time. Not to mention we are getting s pretty great price.
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Old 01-27-2016, 04:18 PM   #28
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

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Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
With this table dynamic UTG2 can count on several callers like he got. With JJ+ shouldn't he looking to narrow the field rather than set mine or play KK AA vs 5 players?
You'd want to thin the field with a premium hand in position?

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Raising here is definitely an option. However, even with my rep, I don't think $60 would do it. If I'm going to raise here, it would have to $80. But that could just be Mr. MUBSY talkin'.

I could see someone calling $50 more with 99/TT with all that dead money sitting there. $80 would tell them I have KK/AA or AK some of the time. Or.....they'd get a read on one of those many face muscles I couldn't control & who knows......
Having hands like TT call us is great because they will fold a lot postflop. If they are calling to ''set farm'' they will surely disappointed when do don't pay them off.

If UTG has a big pair or premium unpaired cards we have decent implied odds if we make our hand and with position we should be able to play our draw optimally/extract the maximum when we bink.
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Old 01-27-2016, 04:25 PM   #29
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

with deep stacks and this lineup I would call. You didn't provide your opponents stack off ranges post flop, but since they are this deep at a 1-2 game, I am assuming that they wont stack off with top pair in a multiway pot. By calling you can go for the "delayed squeeze" play post flop, or you could flop a monster hand.

I like the "delayed squeeze" better since calling in position gives you the ability to see your opponents play their cards face-up post-flop. You can use bet sizing tells to determine how strong your opponents are. If you see small bet sizes post-flop with no raises you can easily range your opponents on a top-pair type hand or a draw. If you put in a big raise on the flop or turn you should be able to take down the pot with more $$ in it then there was with a pre-flop squeeze.

3betting preflop isn't terrible, but it raises the SPR and reduces our edge. For example, I see so many live players do the dumbest stuff pre-flop. Some players play so passively that they can be sitting there with KK and not 3-bet thinking that they are slowplaying a monster. As soon as you 3bet from the button, they will just call you all the way down letting you bluff your stack.

Another bad thing about 3-betting is that the more money a donk has invested in a pot the less likely he is to fold. If we get called after a 3-bet, we are sitting there against a range that crushes our hand strength while simultaneously going up against a guy who wont fold if he catches any piece of the flop or if he holds an overpair to the board.

Last edited by bodybuilder32; 01-27-2016 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 01-27-2016, 04:55 PM   #30
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

Grunch call. You are deep enough to just play for a straight or flush draw.

That said, squeezing looks good here, especially with V's that have a fold button post. Would squeeze to 50, planning to cbet most flops if heads up or three way.
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:21 PM   #31
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

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You'd want to thin the field with a premium hand in position?
Sir, UTG+2 is not ''in position''. Nonetheless we want all the action we can get when we hold a premium hand.
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:56 PM   #32
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

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Originally Posted by JIMMERZZZ View Post
55$ preflop, go headsup with a guy who has had one too many drinks to be playing optimal but still has his wits about him. C-bet dry A 8 2 rainbow and take it down then have a swig of the JD.
Now that's a plan! Since reading 2+2, I've c-bet on boards like that more & more and believe I'm ahead long-term. Not sure if A82r or K82r is more profitable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kookiemonster
UTG+2 is not ''in position''. Nonetheless we want all the action we can get when we hold a premium hand.
Confused. So if UTG opens for $10 & you are UTG+1 with AA, you would call on this table, hoping for more action from behind, even though it's likely the hand will go 5-7 way?
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Old 01-28-2016, 12:20 PM   #33
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

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1/2NL 10 handed 2:30 a.m.

Table dynamic is a 'fun' atmosphere with a lot of chatter & 6th street talk about the hand that just ended. Last call for alcohol created a large order around the table. I chose to be part of the 'party' and ordered a Jack Daniels on the rocks with a water back. 1st drink in over 4 hours.

UTG doesn't straddle & UTG+1 folds.

UTG+2 ~$650 raises to $10. This could be any pair except JJ+, A2s-A5s; A8s+; AJo+; KJs+; KQo; QJs; JTs; 65s+; 86s+.

Edit: It's incorrect to assume that UTG+2 would never raise this lite with JJ+.

Give him a pair on the flop, with a bdfd & bdsd & he'll c-bet, unless his pair is the low card otf. Then he'll c/c if the bet isn't too large.
However, since he gets so many callers here, he may tighten up his c-bet range considerably.

UTG+3 ~$525 Calls. We can cap his pairs at 99. 65s+ and maybe some higher 1-gap SCs starting around T8s. Suited As 2-5 & A8/9s; don't think he'd raise with AQo & would call with AJo & of course ATs/AJs. I think he raises AQs+. He doesn't pay after the flop with weak draws. That being a bdsd or bdfd with 1/2 overs, unless it's just too cheap a price to pass up.

UTG+4 ~$400 Calls. Same range as UTG+3 I would say his range mirrors UTG+3's. He doesn't pay postflop with weak draws either.

Edit: UTG+3/4, It's also incorrect to say they'd never limp behind with TT/JJ, but I would think they'd be inclined to raise with QQ+.

CO ~$375 Same range as the other callers. I would definitely expect him to raise JJ+/AKs/o, and he'd raise enough to give pause to even those who love to gamble.

Hero Button ~$775 Looks like a big winner of the night, however, I'm in the game for $425 and my session logger says I've been playing a total of 7.2 hours.

I had taken a 45 minute break, leaving my chips on the table & when I came back our table had broke & the floor game me one of 2 empty seats in one of the short games & then someone came to take the 10th seat b4 I got back.

I've only been at this table ~30 minutes, but I know all the players who have put $$ in pre. This can turn into a really fun hand. Hero has 98

Hero - Call or raise? $38 in the pot after the rake before my call. $47 if I call and the blinds fold. Not likely the BB will fold with top 40%/50% of holdings. He's one who can't pass up the opportunity to try & hit a B.I.N.G.O with anything that is capable of doing so. The SB is tight enough to easily find a fold.

I don't know how much these players are in the game for, however, none of them are showing signs of wear from bad beats.
Appreciate all the input. Kind of split between a call or raise and good cases for either. However, I elect to call. Reasons:

1. As stated, 98s isn't as robust as QJs, or even JTs.
2. I have 4 in the pot. Decided it was too risky to put in a healthy raise.
3. It would really be nice for the SB to find it in himself to call, along with the BB.
4. I have a close friend who is a dealer who I play with at another casino. I also have 1 close friend that I share visual tells with. That's enough. I don't like talking strategy with a lot of friends - too many people get to know what goes on in your head. Takes a long time to build up the trust needed to share info you can count on not being shared.

Anyway, they both say I have yet to get control of my facial muscles & even body when I'm betting/raising big with a medium weak holding. It's getting better, but I still have work to do.

I call, the SB folds & the BB calls. 6 to the flop

Flop: [$54 raked] KT6

Note: My ability to put players on fairly accurate ranges has failed me a decent percentage of the time. I find myself sometimes putting myself in their shoes when setting their ranges. It's getting much better though.

Not a bad flop. The K hi flush draws have been nixed. If there's a QJ out there, its only got 7 outs to Broadway unless it's suited in s.

BB & UTG+2 check. Who knows what BB has. I put UTG+2 on KQ, AK, KJs, KTs, TT, 66, QQ, JJ. Those are his good hands, along with that percentage of the time he'd raise light with AA/KK.

All the other pairs he'd open with are included & his QJs would probably be a check, especially if it's s. I think he'd look to c/r with that. Also his SCs. Still have to give him a possible 87s & of course the same hand I have in another suit & T9s. The KJs & KTs [if he plays that one] would probably be a check to attempt to control the pot. I highly doubt he opens in EP with KJo.

I don't think he always o/r in EP with those low SCs, but we've got the right atmosphere for it this morning.

I would think he'd c-bet with AK & with KQo he has no bdfd, just a bdsd, so I think he'd bet a good percentage of the time, rather to attempt to pot control & let someone else bet.

UTG+3 bets $30. I don't think this guy even looked at the board until it was his turn. He was watching those in front of him. He now looks, takes 5-10 seconds, cuts out $30 & places it in front of his cards.

My money is on him having hit the flop with either top pair, a set, or a really nice draw.

UTG+4 calls. J9? Or even any J9s? 87s? Why wouldn't he raise with a set?

CO folds. $114 in the pot. I've got an easy call I think & find no reason to want to raise?
I still have to see what BB does & primarily UTG+2. Standard decision here, eh?
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Old 01-28-2016, 12:29 PM   #34
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

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Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
UTG+4 calls. J9? Or even any J9s? 87s? Why wouldn't he raise with a set?
Unless he has a set and you're foreshadowing, why couldn't UTG+4 have a higher or lower diamond flush for his call?
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Old 01-28-2016, 12:37 PM   #35
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

Calling. We don't have to make wizard raises every hand, and we should be getting solid direct odds on a call. If you were going to be aggro, it needs to be pf, not on flop.
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Old 01-28-2016, 12:48 PM   #36
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

Not raising and not in love with calling either...flush draw can't be as live as it appears.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:00 PM   #37
ZuneIt
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuneit
UTG+4 calls. J9? Or even any J9s? 87s? Why wouldn't he raise with a set?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Curious View Post
Unless he has a set and you're foreshadowing, why couldn't UTG+4 have a higher or lower diamond flush for his call?
Good point. I got to rushing thru the players I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whorasaurus
Calling. We don't have to make wizard raises every hand, and we should be getting solid direct odds on a call. If you were going to be aggro, it needs to be pf, not on flop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stellamoose
Not raising and not in love with calling either...flush draw can't be as live as it appears.
I agree & as Stellamoose points out - it's not all that great a flush draw. However, if we take a look at this thread, we'll find that the odds of someone having the same flush draw as you are not as great as one may think. And, in the link below, I didn't have a flush draw - I flopped a set of Kings.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/25...d-set-1576494/

I agree. I think this is nothing but a call
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:06 PM   #38
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

UTG +3 has something, but his sizing is fairly weak on a draw-heavy board. UTG +4 is even weaker. If we can stomach the variance train, I'm putting a healthy raise here and trying to fold out better flush/straight draws and weakish made hands like KJ/KQ. If called by made hands, we have decent equity and can fire a 2nd bullet to drive them off weak sauce.

Make it $175.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:24 PM   #39
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

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Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie View Post
UTG +3 has something, but his sizing is fairly weak on a draw-heavy board. UTG +4 is even weaker. If we can stomach the variance train, I'm putting a healthy raise here and trying to fold out better flush/straight draws and weakish made hands like KJ/KQ. If called by made hands, we have decent equity and can fire a 2nd bullet to drive them off weak sauce.

Make it $175.
Now you see here! All this time & I've never realized how aggressive Tootie can be?! If he gets a following, I am going to have to study his past posts.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:33 PM   #40
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

$175 seems like a bit of overkill but I'd bump this puppy up to $130-140
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:35 PM   #41
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

Call and bink the 7. Not comfortable with my FD.

As for tells.... I just started playing live a few times per month. I have a (so far) uncontrollable shake to my hands when placing a raise or leading with a big hand. I can't mentally control this.

I have started scattering different sized chip piles around my stacks so that it has become an easy grab-n-go move.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:36 PM   #42
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

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Call and bink the 7. Not comfortable with my FD.

As for tells.... I just started playing live a few times per month. I have a (so far) uncontrollable shake to my hands when placing a raise or leading with a big hand. I can't mentally control this.

I have started scattering different sized chip piles around my stacks so that it has become an easy grab-n-go move.
Or if you can, grab bigger denomination chips so flinging 2-3 chips in won't cause your shaking hand to stand out.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:37 PM   #43
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

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$175 seems like a bit of overkill but I'd bump this puppy up to $130-140
$130-140 seems value-y. I really don't want a call here, so I'm skewing this bigger to discourage calls.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:39 PM   #44
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

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Now you see here! All this time & I've never realized how aggressive Tootie can be?! If he gets a following, I am going to have to study his past posts.
Haha I may be not as aggro as some because a lot of posts here (and my own) are based on shallow games where FE doesn't exist.

We're deep enough here where being aggro with this hand is the way to go IMO. I want better flush draws and straight draws to fold and put Kx to a decision.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:48 PM   #45
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

Definitely not allowing the thought of folding to even begin to speculate about considering the the possibility of crossing my mind.

Yeah, we might be up against a higher flush draw, but it's not very likely. We might also be against a set, but that's also unlikely since the tepid preflop action suggest KK and TT are unlikely.

I think we're overall 35 - 40% to have the best hand by the river. My first thought was also to put in a raise. We might fold out higher flush draws, though most of them have some extra value (overcard, BDSD, pair) and so will tend to be a bit stickier than we'd like. We might fold out TP mehK. KT and the unlikely sets will almost certainly repop (and we'll be sad).

I eventually decided that we had a clearly profitable call and a more speculative raise. I could get behind either. I think the problem with a call is that we might get blown off our hand on the turn. On the other hand, if we make our draw, we'll probably have a larger pool of customers to help the implied odds (especially if we hit the gutshot). Raising gives us the opportunity to take a free card or perhaps to continue firing if we think we have a profitable turn semi-bluff.

I think an aggro image adds some value to a call and a more sedate image adds some value to a raise.

Much like preflop, I think either a raise or a call are supportable. Reads on V's playing tendencies would obviously be a large factor.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:52 PM   #46
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

I'd be more inclined to call if our outs were to the nuts. However, none of our outs are to the nuts, so we are fine with folding out better draws.

errr...forgot the 7 gives us the nuts. still like a raise.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:53 PM   #47
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

As played, I think we r in a very uncomfy spot.

Still, we have good direct odds should our FD be good, and good IO for our gutter. In position, call $30.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:59 PM   #48
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

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$130-140 seems value-y. I really don't want a call here, so I'm skewing this bigger to discourage calls.
I don't think there is any difference in FE between $140 and $175. $140 is still a pot sized raise (which isn't all that common at NL) and nearly 5x the flop bet.

Keeping the pot a little smaller also makes our turn barrel less expensive if we get check/called by a sticky AX that wants to see the turn but is unlikely to call a large turn barrel (1/2 - 2/3 PSB) if the turn bricks out.
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Old 01-28-2016, 02:15 PM   #49
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PAHWM: 98s OTB

Raise 150 targeting middling Kx and 8/9 out draws to fold. Sucks if PFR c/jams on us but I don't expect that often.

150 will leave utg3 calling 120 into 280 with 365 behind if my mental math is right. If he calls and we bink we can still milk it in while having just over a pot sized turn shove as our nuclear option should we choose to bluff turn bricks rather than take a free card.
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Old 01-28-2016, 02:27 PM   #50
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Re: PAHWM: 98s OTB

Call, but this raises a reason for raising pre-flop. Now I'm worried about a bigger diamond flush draw. Could we have pushed an AXdd out if we had raised pre? All we have is 3 nut outs and 9 scary outs. Makes me even want to fold, which makes me question the pre-flop decision. That said, I guess I'm calling, but won't be happy when 4 other people call.
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