Villain 1 ($225)in this hand has c/raised more often than anyone I have ever seen, and raises to $6 with like 45% of his holdings. I have seen him c/raise a $6 river bet to $12 with a hand that he mucked to bottom 2 pair and c.raise a FD on flop and again OTT once.

Villain 2 ($160) is pretty passive, not agressive, but sticky when he gets raised. He bets small alot and latches on with most of his range when getting raised.

Hero has a "tighter" image I suppose. Not sure people have noticed me much as I have yet to get past the turn with a showdown at this table. ($225 effective)

3 limps, villain is OTB and makes it $6, V1 calls, hero is in BB with 89 hero??

Regardless if I call or fold, I know this small raise induces 5way+ action. 3bet squeeze appears like suicide against this guy.

did you mix the villains up. I assume button is V1 and SB is V2?

Folding is pretty much out of the question for this cheap, although these hands aren't great OOP.

I suggest just posting the flop as you sort of ruled out squeezing for whatever reason (although 89s is a pretty nice hand to squeeze with). Making it 35-40 is a pretty decent play though IMO with all that dead money out there.

Villain 1 ($225)in this hand has c/raised more often than anyone I have ever seen, and raises to $6 with like 45% of his holdings. I have seen him c/raise a $6 river bet to $12 with a hand that he mucked to bottom 2 pair and c.raise a FD on flop and again OTT once.

Villain 2 ($160) is pretty passive, not agressive, but sticky when he gets raised. He bets small alot and latches on with most of his range when getting raised.

Hero has a "tighter" image I suppose. Not sure people have noticed me much as I have yet to get past the turn with a showdown at this table. ($225 effective)

3 limps, villain 1 is OTB and makes it $6, V2 calls, hero is in BB with 89 hero calls, 2 other villains call.

(POT: $31) Flop comes out KJ5

Hero...?

Yes, got them mixed up. Thanks for noting that

Normally, squeezing here is a good play. But with these villains it`s more prudent to 3bet for value with a wider (dominating) range than to steal pots from them with hands like SCs that play well versus these profiles in a multiway pot.

I call.

I'm not leasing this flop, getting raised blows. This is not a great flop for our hand. C/evaluate. I think it is crucial to remember we play this hand pre because it is +EV given our ability to play it well on all flops (and other streets). That is where the EV comes from. Do not get stuck in the moronic mind set of "well you played it, what kind of flop did you want" or "c/c here is playing it like every other showdown monkey". I expect to see these comments as the hand develops and they are both crap, IMO. Flopping a draw does not equal shoveling as man chips in as we can. We are still looking for the most +EV line.

Pre is totally fine.

I agree with this. And against these villain types imo 3 betting this is a bad idea pre, even though it did cross my mind. Villain 1 won't cooperate and I wouldnt be able to put him on a range; but felt folding was a smidge too nitty (and im really tight OOP)

Please speak in EV terms. It is much better than value laden descriptions. NIT /= bad

I know what you mean (I think) but saying folding is bad because you believe calling to be +EV is just so much better.

I check/call this flop and evaluate on the turn. I am hoping obviously for a diamond turn but I think we can ck/raise a lot of good turn cards in this hand and expect to take down a lot of pots this way. There isn't really a terrible card that can come on the turn that doesnt slightly improve our hand unless it be some low rag card in which case a ck/raise will probably not get much credit as I don't know what we are trying to represent. So I am going to ck/raise most turn cards and I am going to make an argument for leading this flop and expecting to take the pot right here a reasonable amount of the time.

I think that struggling to find a good line on this flop is part of why it's hard to make calling +EV preflop. I think preflop is a good situation for a squeeze - just make it $24 to go. Calling seems OK given the pot odds an you closing the action, but when you think about how the hand flops (5% of the time 2pr+, 20% of the time either an OESD or a FD, the rest of the time junk) and being OOP in a MW pot I struggle to see how you are going to outplay your opponents enough here to call preflop despite it looking like such a pretty hand.

As played, I don't like leading here. I usually lead with a strong range that I am not folding to a raise, or with a good one-pair hand for protection that I don't mind folding when raised since it's clearly behind the raising range in a mw pot. Here you are going to be called a lot and not be sure how to proceed on a lot of turns. I don't like c/c because you are basically repping what you have and are setting yourself up for RIO.

So that leads c/f and c/r. I think c/f is fine to a large bet size. It's anticlimactic but oh well. Trust me, you are not giving much in EV if you c/f here. The alternative would be to c/r big. So if someone bets $12, you would make it $45+. If there is a bet and a call, you would make it ~$60. You would be raise-folding if they ship obviously. You can easily have KJ and bottom set here that would play that way, as well as the NFD (which is almost even money against a hand like KQ). So you have enough legit combos in your perceived range to get fold equity against hands like KT, as well as fold out a lot of his A-high or other junk that would be c-betting this board.

Cliffs: C/r big is slightly better than c/f >> c/c or lead IMO.

Setsy, we are not closing the action pre and have no idea of the flop action, so how on earth can we determine what would be best if we decide to check.

I disagree finding a good line is tough, we are playing stack a donk against a confirmed spazz who will probably bet size poorly and pay us off. It is not the best flop and other players complicate it. The fact that some flop are harder than others should not lead to the assumption of -EV

You are right, my bad for not noticing the limpers.

Just because a guy likes to bluff c/r doesn't mean he will pay you off.

If the guy is opening to $6 with 45% of hands as per OP, why would 3 betting PF be bad? When ranges are wide Fold Equity >> Implied Odds. When ranges are narrow and strong, IO>>FE.

I don't play 1/2 in casinos so i dont know, but not sure how we can stack anyone on this board that often if we hit our flush card on a later street. But what do I know, this is why i don't post in most 1/2 threads as people play bad enough that i guess anything is possible.

I still think a big c/r is the way to go with the plan on not putting more money in unless we hit.

Here is my description on these players:

1) They are sticky preflop, so 3 betting OOP makes this really awkward to play post flop since we have fold equity only postflop.
2) 2 of the villains in this hand are willing to pay off pretty light, dont hand read too well