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PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK

06-28-2016 , 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTLB
Hero in CO 3bets KK to $45, only V calls.

Flop ($95): JJ4
V checks, H bets $50, V c/r $115, H calls

Turn ($325): 5
V checks, H checks
River ($325): 2
V bets $225

Great discussion so far. I appreciate all the feedback. Best play now?
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-28-2016 , 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTLB
River ($325): 2
V bets $225

Great discussion so far. I appreciate all the feedback. Best play now?
As played, I call....with the caveat that I would've checked the flop.
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-28-2016 , 07:52 PM
Pretty suspect bet-size. You gave V credit for being a very good player, I don't see him taking a double check-raise line with a Jack. 4/2s full or you're good.

Call.
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-28-2016 , 08:03 PM
$225 looks right with a Jx and I don't believe you can exclude any Jx from range. i suspect V has what he's repping a little too often here. Slightly odd line, but that may be a specific response to his observation of your play in previous hands. When you boil it down V has gone for two streets of value against a range that doesn't have much Jx but has a whole lot of stubborn bluff catchers. Seems reasonable. Fold.
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-29-2016 , 10:16 PM
Feel like this is a good example of why checking flop was better. Hero is facing a gross spot on river for a big bet. If hero had checked flop assuming villain barrels twice you are looking at a bet of like 130 on the river and can snap off all bluffs and all of villains thin value hands.
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-29-2016 , 11:26 PM
Results?
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-30-2016 , 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Results?
Hero calls and is shown 44. Have to say I love the way V played the hand.

C/r flop to build the pot.
Check turn to de-leverage the pot.
VB river to win the pot.
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-30-2016 , 08:48 AM
What do you mean by "de-leverage" the pot?
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-30-2016 , 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
What do you mean by "de-leverage" the pot?
I.e. Lose value
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-30-2016 , 09:06 AM
So if thats what it means, why does Hero like the way villain played?

Build pot
Lose value
Win pot?

Its possible that villain was going for a double check raise trying to make it look like he had a flush draw on the flop. If thats the case I actually like the play. Otherwise, not so much
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-30-2016 , 10:40 AM
3! pre to 70.

check the flop for pot control and deception.

Bet any non ace turn to 90.

re-eval river
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-30-2016 , 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTLB
Hero calls and is shown 44. Have to say I love the way V played the hand.

C/r flop to build the pot.
Check turn to de-leverage the pot.
VB river to win the pot.
I'd say losing only 77 BB's with an overpair vs. a boat on a board where the flush draw bricks out is a pretty good outcome. You can't fold the flop and you really can't fold the river either absent some sick read. But your read is that he is unlikely to have Broadways due to preflop sizing so we can discount Jx which leaves him with 3 combos of 44 and 'X' combos of everything else.
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-30-2016 , 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nice_Guy_Eddie
Great discussion. I'm curious if the check flop crowd would do the same with AK/AQ? Arguably, hero's CO 3! range should contain mostly missed AK/AQ (32 combos) and only 18 QQ+.
Yes bc they are still high sdv (showdown value) hands. Very easy to win this hand with basically all of your sdv if you check flop. If he bets turn, you call. If he bets blank river, you can call again. AK high is a very strong hand heads up on a paired board.

If he bets turn checks River this is a line that often means he has sdv...you can take your sdv but most of the time Id bomb to fold out all pairs and or get my overpair range paid.

Understanding sdv is very important, say this was a single raised pot...many people would check/give up 9Ts here but auto bet AK, which is backwards.
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-30-2016 , 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
What do you mean by "de-leverage" the pot?
If V bets again OTT, I'm likely folding because I don't think he's bluffing here very often (and bluffing includes betting hands like TT).

So when he checks, he takes the pressure off me and earns a call OTR.

It's the opposite of double barrel bluffing OTT with deep stacks. Say you cbet AJ on 863r and bet K turn. You're using the threat of a big river bet as leverage to try to force a one pair hand to fold.
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-30-2016 , 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTLB
If V bets again OTT, I'm likely folding because I don't think he's bluffing here very often (and bluffing includes betting hands like TT).

So when he checks, he takes the pressure off me and earns a call OTR.
Actually there are not many reasons to change our plan after his turn check. Still thinking that his x turn was a blunder, lost value. When it worked why not, cannot argue a succesful move.
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-30-2016 , 06:49 PM
V played it perfectly.

V would lose far more value if he bet turn. Hero doesn't have a lot of Jx in range and non-flush rivers are going to see hero-calls quite often from stubborn AX and higher pairs.
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote
06-30-2016 , 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia
Yes bc they are still high sdv (showdown value) hands. Very easy to win this hand with basically all of your sdv if you check flop. If he bets turn, you call. If he bets blank river, you can call again. AK high is a very strong hand heads up on a paired board.

If he bets turn checks River this is a line that often means he has sdv...you can take your sdv but most of the time Id bomb to fold out all pairs and or get my overpair range paid.

Understanding sdv is very important, say this was a single raised pot...many people would check/give up 9Ts here but auto bet AK, which is backwards.
I think the above is a good line against bluffy opponents with both KK and AK. I certainly agree with the last paragraph, where we should check sdv hands and bluff hands that can't win.

I also think checking the flop makes sense >150BB deep. Eliminating a street of betting helps villains call bets on later streets and protects hero's stack when villain does bink a J.

Against the described opponent who is a 'one of the best players in the room', I think a bet/3bet-shove line is best ~100BB. A savvy hand reader should bluff this pot. He realize hero 3-bets typically are a bluff and hero almost never 3-bets the flop with Jx or a premium pair. Calling the flop raise lets villain know hero has something decent, but checking the turn tells him hero doesn't have a J.

Despite the results, I think villain took a pretty terrible line with the virtual nuts. I'd rather donk the flop and hope to get raised. It should be easy to gii ~100BB deep and villain failed to do it.
PAHWM - 5/5 tough spot with KK Quote

      
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