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Old 08-18-2017, 01:34 PM   #1
QuantumSurfer
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PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

5/5 on Thursday night. Hero has $1285 and most of the table either covers or is close. This is within the 1st hour at the table, so no solid reads. Table dynamics are overall TAG-ish. Not many limped pots compared to an average game, maybe just 1/3 of them. Usually someone will raise or 3bet and most pots go either 3 way or HU to the flop. Hero has been folding the majority of his hands. Made maybe 1 or 2 pf raises. I made 1 3bet from SB. Cbet flop and was called. Barreled turn and got a fold.


UTG + 2: Middle aged Asian guy, covers hero. He's the one I 3bet from SB and got 1 street of value. He seemed tilted after the hand. Frequencies suggest he's the LAGgiest of the bunch but I don't recall seeing showdowns up to this point.


MP1: Whale on a heater. Rich 30's dude from Dominican Republic. Covers the whole table. An older regular at another table asked me to exact revenge upon him, presumably for a previous bad beat.

LJ: Random older Asian dude. Not a nit pre, but fairly fit/fold post.


SB: Thinking TAGish player. Can't help himself from talking strat to me.

BB: Unknown.

Hero 1st to act, looks down at 22

Last edited by QuantumSurfer; 08-18-2017 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:37 PM   #2
Playbig2000
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

fold
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:39 PM   #3
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

Cool. Thread over.
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:43 PM   #4
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

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Cool. Thread over.
Most pots are raised pre and it goes HU or 3 ways or get 3bet, if you wanna limp/call, you can, but it's not really making money in the long run. Thread is not over I'm pretty sure.
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:47 PM   #5
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

To me depends on what the normal preflop raise size is (how much do you need to raise to not get just as many callers as limping), how often people are 3 betting, how much people are punishing limps. If 3 betting is somewhat rare I'd be fine to put in the standard open. If you have to open large or if the table is allowing some limped pots or if you're able to mix in some solid hands in the limping range utg I would prefer limp. You're going for bottom set or nothing and have terrible position so this is why I lean towards limp or fold. If every single hand is getting jacked up to $30 pre you can disguise your limps by sometimes limping hands like AK making the utg limp not as weak. If your opponents wanna stack off postflop anyways I don't see the point in opening large. If opening small has the same effect as limping then we can just limp...
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:47 PM   #6
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

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fold
/thread

If playing raising to standard open sizing
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:50 PM   #7
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

If the table is generally deep then raise sometimes and fold sometimes. How often varies. More often with loose/sticky villains, less with tight/weak ones*. More often with passive ones, less with aggressive ones (possibly never if they are maniac aggressive). If you are raising this more then 50% of the time UTG it's too often, this is a 25% or less type hand.

* This may seem odd but with 22 hero is mostly trying to flop a set OOP. Hero won't get heads up often enough too plan on bluffing.
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:50 PM   #8
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

I mean, I don't mind calling a 3b here if I were to open raise since we're pretty deep. I defer to folding 55 & below UTG when I'm less than $750 eff & I certainly understand that it's not the best spot to be in. I've been listening to David Tuchman recently as he's familiar with the specific games I frequent & he suggests opening all PP from all positions in these games w/ 200bb+. I'm also the type of person that's influenced by the last opinion I heard so I figured I'd hear what you all have to say.

Also, might have to edit the original post if possible. It's not like all pots were raised pre, just much more than an average limpy game.
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:51 PM   #9
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

i fold 55 and under from UTG unless table is awful passive or has some punters. If table doesn't 3bet much it's fine to open a whole bunch of speculative hands.
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:52 PM   #10
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

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Originally Posted by QuantumSurfer View Post
I mean, I don't mind calling a 3b here if I were to open raise since we're pretty deep. I defer to folding 55 & below UTG when I'm less than $750 eff & I certainly understand that it's not the best spot to be in. I've been listening to David Tuchman recently as he's familiar with the specific games I frequent & he suggests opening all PP from all positions in these games w/ 200bb+. I'm also the type of person that's influenced by the last opinion I heard so I figured I'd hear what you all have to say.

Also, might have to edit the original post if possible. It's not like all pots were raised pre, just much more than an average limpy game.
I think it all just comes down to how many players are the types to stack off with TPTK. if the answer is none we are either trying to get to a cheap flop or we fold if we expect someone to raise it up to 25+
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:57 PM   #11
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

With table dynamics I'd go for a limp or a fold. For the sake of this post, I'll limp.
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Old 08-18-2017, 01:57 PM   #12
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

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* This may seem odd but with 22 hero is mostly trying to flop a set OOP. Hero won't get heads up often enough too plan on bluffing.
Not odd to me. Exactly what I was planning on & am wondering if it's at all profitable. I'm done with the hand unless I spike. If it gets to showdown, I'd also like a few of the observant players, like SB, to know that my UTG range isn't AK/JJ+
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Old 08-18-2017, 02:27 PM   #13
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

Rant coming on...

Just don't limp anything UTG ever if you're regging 2/5, especially deep. You're just capped and f****d the majority of the time and even trash regs know it and will go out of their way to take advantage of it. It's also just too many hands to be playing from a tough spot.

As for opening all the way down to 22 UTG, well, a close friend of mind, who mashes 2/5 across the country for 80-90/hr forever, will never fold any pair pre from any position on the table. Another LV T20 crusher I know opens/3bets it always. Another close friend, a 2/5 goat, will never have 22 UTG ever ever ever from utg-MP. I only bring up these silly anecdotes because it's a pretty good idea to just stick with tried and true basics and then experiment outward from there.

It just really isn't a big deal not to have 22 on 27Jr flops from UTG because you have 77 JJ and some T9s. Also, not all small pps are created equal. There is a big difference between 22 and 66 from a raw equity standpoint.
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Old 08-18-2017, 02:32 PM   #14
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

meh i've recently started folding a lot of my smaller pocket pairs OOP.

but i get we are deep and we have some players at the table who will pay us off.

im ok just limping this at this table. most of the table dont sound sharp enough to exploit our EP limping range.

limp/raise/fold are all fine IMO



ETA: after hearing about a mythical player who beats $2/5 for $90/hr across the country, I will never limp another pp UTG ever again.
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Old 08-18-2017, 02:41 PM   #15
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

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ETA: after hearing about a mythical player who beats $2/5 for $90/hr across the country, I will never limp another pp UTG ever again.
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Old 08-18-2017, 04:25 PM   #16
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

Straddle
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Old 08-18-2017, 05:06 PM   #17
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

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Straddle
You make this game sound too easy.
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:27 PM   #18
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
Just don't limp anything UTG ever if you're regging 2/5, especially deep. You're just capped and f****d the majority of the time and even trash regs know it and will go out of their way to take advantage of it. It's also just too many hands to be playing from a tough spot.
And the choir says, "Amen."

I would personally lean towards folding rather than raising in this situation. You have no fold equity pf. Even if you showed everyone AA, they are still going to call you pf. While people easily remember that the implied odds increases when playing deep, they forget that position becomes even more important. Playing oop is hard for everyone deep.

That said, a good PAHWM consists of multiple mistakes from the Hero. So let's get the show going.
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:41 PM   #19
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

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And the choir says, "Amen."

I would personally lean towards folding rather than raising in this situation. You have no fold equity pf. Even if you showed everyone AA, they are still going to call you pf. While people easily remember that the implied odds increases when playing deep, they forget that position becomes even more important. Playing oop is hard for everyone deep.

That said, a good PAHWM consists of multiple mistakes from the Hero. So let's get the show going.
Hopefully, this will provide many. (The flop will be boring and glossed over though)

5/5 $1285 eff.

UTG + 2 = Middle aged Asian guy, covers hero. I 3bet his UTG open from SB before. From $30 to $135 after 1 caller. Flop was T95 FD. I lead ~$175, he called. Turn was a 6x. I lead for $375, he folded and looked upset.

LJ = Random older Asian dude. Not a nit pre, but fairly fit/fold post.

Hero raises 22 UTG to LOL $15. Small, but not uncommon in these games. I've yet to do it at this table, but I've been experimenting with small opens from EP over the past month.

UTG + 2 3bets to $45, folds to LJ who flats, folds to hero who calls.

Flop $139

468

checked through

Turn $139

2

Hero..?
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:52 PM   #20
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumSurfer View Post
Hopefully, this will provide many. (The flop will be boring and glossed over though)

5/5 $1285 eff.

UTG + 2 = Middle aged Asian guy, covers hero. I 3bet his UTG open from SB before. From $30 to $135 after 1 caller. Flop was T95 FD. I lead ~$175, he called. Turn was a 6x. I lead for $375, he folded and looked upset.

LJ = Random older Asian dude. Not a nit pre, but fairly fit/fold post.

Hero raises 2PAHWM:  5/5 ~260bb deep.  22 in UTG2PAHWM:  5/5 ~260bb deep.  22 in UTG: UTG to LOL $15. Small, but not uncommon in these games. I've yet to do it at this table, but I've been experimenting with small opens from EP over the past month.

UTG + 2 3bets to $45, folds to LJ who flats, folds to hero who calls.

Flop $139

4PAHWM:  5/5 ~260bb deep.  22 in UTG:6PAHWM:  5/5 ~260bb deep.  22 in UTG:8PAHWM:  5/5 ~260bb deep.  22 in UTG

checked through

Turn $139

2PAHWM:  5/5 ~260bb deep.  22 in UTG:

Hero..?
$100 bet on the turn, if he is tilty about previous hand he can call your bet or possibly raise with his entire range. I think it's more likely he bluff raises than he calls a check raise.
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:58 PM   #21
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

125
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Old 08-18-2017, 07:04 PM   #22
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

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Originally Posted by pvhawkeye View Post
$100 bet on the turn, if he is tilty about previous hand he can call your bet or possibly raise with his entire range. I think it's more likely he bluff raises than he calls a check raise.
If you are implying that H can induce a bluff raise, bet weak and then come over the top. Risky and fancy play.

Last edited by adios; 08-18-2017 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 08-18-2017, 07:10 PM   #23
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

I wouldn't bet too big, but always betting. Still 3 handed, and ranges are narrow-strong which means I want calls in two spots, while being able to defend more easily against a raise.
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Old 08-18-2017, 08:06 PM   #24
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumSurfer View Post
Hero raises 22 UTG to LOL $15. Small, but not uncommon in these games. I've yet to do it at this table, but I've been experimenting with small opens from EP over the past month.
My experience is that these small bets are generally bad but can work at some tables. With aggressive villains you will get reraised a lot and cut way into your odds. It's also dangerous with good players who will realize what sort of range you are on and won't go broke unless they out flopped you. If you include enough good hands to balance you range you are letting too many fish in while OOP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuantumSurfer View Post
UTG + 2 3bets to $45, folds to LJ who flats, folds to hero who calls.
With no stations I'm not excited about this but can't fold a PP to a small raise.

That is interesting situation on the turn. You have a very good hand and a moderately ugly board. Still, should not hit a lot of their range for making/calling a 3 bet and there was no action on the flop. I like $80. Hero wants one call but not two because a lot of river cards are dangerous.
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Old 08-18-2017, 08:58 PM   #25
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Re: PAHWM: 5/5 ~260bb deep. 22 in UTG

75 good on turn
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