I play preflop the same way.

I'd donk a ~PSB on the flop. SPR is ~8, board is drawy, we has a set; let's do this thing.

I bet out myself cuz I hate life if this checks thru (and V1 is unlikely to cbet with air since we are multiway, and there are a lot of scare cards which could slow action down on the turn), plus we can also set the sizing ourselves (instead of allowing V1 to do a sucky sized bet for us). I bet big because most villains are either calling a reasonable sized bet or they ain't, and a ~PSB is reasonable.

Unless the board / action runs out horrible, I'm pretty much feeling committed and looking to get stacks in ASAP.

ETA: While I don't really care who I get action from, and am really just "expecting" it from the fish, I don't think we can right off getting action from V1 yet either, even if he just has an overpair, because he does view us as aggro with our draws. Also, check/raising is more a Limit play (expecting preflop aggressor to our left to bet, suck in all the other players, before springing the trap to build the pot); I think the only time I attempt this play in NL is with a big draw (where I am actually looking for FE when I spring the trap). Also, seems to be inconsistent thoughts for those who want to spring the check/raise (fearing us betting out gets no action, and yet at the same time expecting lots of action when the preflop raiser bets out). Cliffs: I donk.

GlasttimeIfloppedasetsomeoneelsefloppedabetteroneG

I think pre is fine at this table. Definitely leading now. Would be sick if it checked through.

For those advocating betting or ck/rsing, please include a size.
Given how deep we are with some of the people I think sizing is pretty crucial here.

^^^^

With an SPR of ~8, we can get stacks in (which is what we want to do) with approximately three 3/4 PSBs. However, due to the drawyness of the board, I'm cool with a larger bet on the flop to get more immediate value now with our monster, plus it'll eventually setup an easier river shove.

ETA: The larger SPR is against the deeper players, where we'll need 3 streets to get it in (if there is no raising and HU). Against the terrible fish, a ~PSB on the flop actually leaves us with a ~PSB shove for the turn (which would be fine, imo).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Close to pot IMO. I do agree with GG that villain calling ranges on this flop should be fairly inelastic so let's bet bigger!

I would lead for $45. Pot right now is just under $70 ($18 x 4 = $72 - rake). That's about a 2/3 pot sized bet. PFR might fold with overs and others behind to act. I anticipate that if we lead into this, we'll only get 1-2 callers, and if the PFR is not one of them, we'll now have position.

If Hero's donk is raised, I think it doesn't matter what the size is; we'll be in a position to shove, based on stacks. Based on history of at least V3, if he's raising, we're in great shape.

Another reason for donking into this board is Hero's description of the PFR:

[QUOTE=iraisetoomuch;45270118]

V1: He doesn't get enough value post flop because his bet sizing isn't that great. He's still likely the second best player at the table though, as the rest of the table is just terrible. Multiway he will cBet with any top pair, OP, or solid draw, and heads up with 90% of his range on good board textures when IP but doesn't normally cBet with air multiway. In previous sessions he has seen me be very agressive with made hands, draws and complete air. He views me as very aggressive and competent. He always seat changes to my direct left when possible. I normally switch away to a new seat when convenient.$650

[QUOTE]

I bolded what I believe the relevant phrase to be. If he raised pre with any broadway, for example, no diamonds, he'll check through. And as others have said, checking through would really be a disaster for this hand.

That, also combined with the PFR viewing Hero as very aggressive, all makes this a bet IMO.

$45. Hope we get raised. Preferably by V3, then GII baby!

If he raised pre with two overs, I'm okay with this hand checking through on the flop.

I bet $52.

Why $52? Because $50 gets called a lot. It's a nice number. Oh and I had two white chips leftover from preflop and while most will not notice or will assume I'm just getting rid of extras (I am), it also adds a little bit extra on future street which will multiply with future betting.

I would have bet $50, but adding the white chips is a nice touch.

I don't know about bet sizing here so ill be the sheep. Id say bigger is better
Since we'll likely get some calls and if not ill take chips anyway
I can get them. Like women

But even if he pairs the turn, it will often be with a third diamond or another scare card (e.g. he can pair his Jx, but that puts a straight out there; he can pair his Qc with Qd, but that really slows down the action with the flush board). In those cases, we're not necessarily gonna win a ton more from him or others.

Also, if he does have overs, there's a very decent chance he has a diamond and is sticking around if we bet, anyway. And in the rare case he has exactly 2 overs with no diamond, the odds of a non-scare overcard hitting the board and pairing him on the turn are incredibly low. Multiply all those odds together, and you're certainly betting putting money into the pot yourself.

Finally, and it's a big factor, there are still 2 other villains in the hand. Get some chips into the pot now and see if you can build a huge multi-way pot especially before a million bad cards hit the turn.

If you're going to play the balance game, when we limp/call preflop everyone SHOULD know we have a pocket pair. There are only 2 reasons this would not be the case:

1) We are limp/calling other speculative hands, like suited connectors or suited aces. In that case, we can balance by leading some combo draws and/or nut flush draws as well as sets.

2) We expect our opponents not to realize we are unbalanced preflop, in which case we must have already decided that we don't care about balance, and we stick to that decision on the flop.

Either way, there should be no "balance problems" with the decision to lead the flop.

BTW, I'm definitely more inclined to consider some checks in position with a weaker absolute hand facing a weaker relative range on a drier board.

For example, you raise, get heads up in position, you have AA. Villain in MP has range of all broadway + pocket pairs say 22-99. Flop comes 952r.

I think that's a very decent spot to check back in position. You're really not gonna target 3 streets of value, because you really won't get it, and villain's range is mostly unpaired overcards and a few bluff catchers like 66-88. Checking behind the flop here serves many great purposes.

In this 22 hand, I don't see any good reasons to check. You gotta put out a bet unless you know villain will bet himself. And we don't think he will.

I feel like the best chances for stacking someone in this hand are if V1 overplays an overpair because V3 does something stupid or if V2 or V3 turns two pair or trips.

Scare cards scare me less than other people.

Oh, see, I actually disagree with that. I feel like the best chances for stacking someone is to hope V1 overplays an overpair by raising a flop lead, or V3 flopped a draw (or top pair maybe?) and puts his whole stack in on the turn.

I admit there are variables that can make me change my mind. I'd have to ask myself:

-If V1 cbets, what hands in his range does he continue with on the turn if he gets multiple callers?
-How does V1 think I play a flush draw?
-If it gets checked around, what hands do V2/V3 lead the turn with?
-Does V3 check-raise with a different range than he raises with in position? If he check-raises and gets called, with what hands does he check the turn?
-Does V3 bluff missed draws on the end in big pots?

I'll also admit that my table image is different than OP the and regulars I play against tend to be aware that I can have a set, an open-ended straight flush draw, an overpair, or the nut flush draw anytime I check-call, check-raise, or lead the flop, so they can't rule out anything that their hand doesn't block no matter how I play this.

If V3 raised, then maybe. However, it was V1, who is the second best player at the table and has shown no inclination to think TP is stack off material. To get at V3, we have to hit the set, which is 8.5:1 against. On top of that V3 has to hit something which is about 2:1. That means about overall we're going to have a good situation where we'll stack off against V3 and some of that time, we'll be beat.

We're not going to be able to outplay anyone. In a MW pot, unimproved ducks are worthless and because the villains can't fold a made hand, we have no FE.

This is why I was so against a limp because our hand plays absolutely terribly when we l/c with ducks OOP to someone who has KTo in his iso range and cbets a lot postflop.

RE: CallMeVernon - Having both the best draws in the world along with the best made hands in the world doesn't really count as balance.

I realize "balance" is kind of a bad word at LLSNL, especially at a table described as bad, but our lead here is going to get WAY more respect than if we were the one cbetting.

I'm not entrenched at all. I said I was fine with overlimping if it weren't for V1 acting behind us. This doesn't mean I'm in the Never Limp camp by any stretch of the imagination; this just isn't a very good spot to do it.

That is 100% true. And by the way, I would have raised preflop, although I felt I didn't want to get dragged into the discussion about it since it happens all the time on here and no one actually convinces anyone of anything.

I'd bet $40-45. That's around my standard flop bet, offers no signal of hand strength. I'd also bet that amount with K10 or A10 here.

I'm hoping I get immediately raised. That should price out the straight draws, at the very least. And if I do get raised, I'll lean heavily towards a reraise. Too many turn cards kill our action. I want to get money in the pot right now, and I want it to be as much moeny as possible.

Downside of this strategy is that it can force one-pair hands to play correctly against us. And, of course, it means that we're going broke anytime we run into set-over-set.

Upside is that gambley 1-2 players like to gamble. Betting here can build a monster pot while I'm still way, way ahead.

/street discussion

Let's say we check, and get our 'dream' scenario where we get stacks in vs. two villains.
Our hand isn't actually doing THAT well in terms of equity vs. their ranges. We're either drawing dead to a higher set, or we have like 60% equity vs. a flush draw and an overpair, which is good equity, but still fairly vulnerable.

Just bet $50 and get value from tons of draws.

Yup. I'm still trying to break myself of habits from years of multitabling limit games. I now think a lead of $42 is better. Bring along the draws and the Tx's. Who knows what garbage we can get V3 to put money in with.

We're due for the next step in the action, no?