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Old 08-21-2015, 08:00 PM   #176
johnny_on_the_spot
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

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Originally Posted by mpethybridge View Post
Yeah, V had Ax almost certainly. The only doubt in my mind about it is because I would have expected him to ship the river himself rather than c/c.
But busted club draws don't call river ship. 6/diamonds are unlikely. What other options are there to extract value?
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Old 08-21-2015, 08:29 PM   #177
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

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But busted club draws don't call river ship. 6/diamonds are unlikely. What other options are there to extract value?
All over pairs through QQ, obv. They should be a decent chunk of OP's 3 bet calling range, and a majority of his range to call the turn.
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Old 08-21-2015, 08:36 PM   #178
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

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I thought the 4-6 comment was fishier myself if he thinks I am BTN raising and 3! defending with 64.

I interpreted his "worst card in the deck" comment to imply I was floating with AX and lucked out with a runner-runner straight instead.

He kinda grumbled something like "that's not the point / that doesn't matter" when I asked about my Q outs being live so I think he had JJ or something. Pretty sure he is snap calling with AA getting 2.6:1 on the call.
64s and QTs have very similar equity against the value part of his 3 bet range.

I feel pretty confident he had Ax.
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Old 08-21-2015, 09:06 PM   #179
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

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Originally Posted by mpethybridge View Post
Yeah, V had Ax almost certainly. The only doubt in my mind about it is because I would have expected him to ship the river himself rather than c/c.
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64s and QTs have very similar equity against the value part of his 3 bet range.

I feel pretty confident he had Ax.
So it's possible then that this V is not perfect and may in fact be a spew monkey that has an unbalanced 3! frequency between value hands and broadways and further, doesn't seem to differentiate between 3! in position vs. OOP?

If we suspend our disbelief for a moment and consider the fact that he didn't have AA, KK and AA the 3 SB's in a row (because people at LLSNL ONLY 3! AA-KK!!!) /sarc then do you believe we had enough hand equity plus steal equity to call the turn if we can bluff him off his A-high hands X% of the time on the river? Where X doesn't really need to be all that high, maybe 20%, to make the spot profitable.
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Old 08-21-2015, 09:45 PM   #180
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

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So it's possible then that this V is not perfect and may in fact be a spew monkey that has an unbalanced 3! frequency between value hands and broadways and further, doesn't seem to differentiate between 3! in position vs. OOP?

If we suspend our disbelief for a moment and consider the fact that he didn't have AA, KK and AA the 3 SB's in a row (because people at LLSNL ONLY 3! AA-KK!!!) /sarc then do you believe we had enough hand equity plus steal equity to call the turn if we can bluff him off his A-high hands X% of the time on the river? Where X doesn't really need to be all that high, maybe 20%, to make the spot profitable.
Sigh. V should be weighted toward light 3 bets against your raises. Having Ax here is perfectly fine for him. In no way is it evidence that he spews.

I don't think you have a full appreciation for just who exploited whom in this hand.

He outplayed you and the deck bailed you out.

And I don't believe for a second you planned to bluff shove the river. Your line here was totally passive until you made the ~nuts. Even your smack talk about implied odds is evidence of no plan other than to call til you caught a miracle.
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Old 08-21-2015, 10:04 PM   #181
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

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Sigh. V should be weighted toward light 3 bets against your raises. Having Ax here is perfectly fine for him. In no way is it evidence that he spews.

I don't think you have a full appreciation for just who exploited whom in this hand.

He outplayed you and the deck bailed you out.

And I don't believe for a second you planned to bluff shove the river. Your line here was totally passive until you made the ~nuts. Even your smack talk about implied odds is evidence of no plan other than to call til you caught a miracle.
Sorry I hope I didn't come across as condescending I just don't understand your praise for V. If QTs is near the bottom of my raising range and probably too weak for my 3!/call range then shouldn't my continuing range be heavily weighted towards medium-to-big pocket pairs and AK, AQs type hands?

If that is the case, how is V 3! from the SB with a hand like A5s with no dead money to squeeze a +EV play?

Or stated differently, after three 3!, if V is such a good player, wouldn't he expect an adjustment from me? If I had AA or KK here I would play the hand the exact same way, calling him down until he stopped betting and then betting myself.

Regarding whether I would bluff the river or not, I'm not sure how you can make that assumption.
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Old 08-21-2015, 10:50 PM   #182
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Imo, very likely V has Ax.
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Old 08-21-2015, 10:52 PM   #183
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

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Originally Posted by mpethybridge View Post
Sigh. V should be weighted toward light 3 bets against your raises. Having Ax here is perfectly fine for him. In no way is it evidence that he spews.

I don't think you have a full appreciation for just who exploited whom in this hand.

He outplayed you and the deck bailed you out.

And I don't believe for a second you planned to bluff shove the river. Your line here was totally passive until you made the ~nuts. Even your smack talk about implied odds is evidence of no plan other than to call til you caught a miracle.
+1

Bluff shoving the river as played didn't leave you with a big enough bet to make the shove worth it, imo.
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:14 PM   #184
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

I'm unclear on how good V is at this point. Bet sizing up through the turn suggest skills, but berating a player for poor play does not. If V has KK he'd mumble about the club nut flush draw not 64. All Ax should bet the river and the only A complaining about the river should be AA. So, in the end I give the most weight to the tank tapping and conclude he's no star.

Unfortunately I don't think I really persuaded anyone itt that V likely quite wide heading into the turn. I'm sticking with turn is jam>fold>call because I'd guess 2 overs likely dbl barrel this board but who knows.

Also, op, if part of your style is to get under skin then whatevs, but I don't like the odds comment. I like to keep the info low and the respect high on sixth street, but I'm a diplomat at heart.

Apologies for the novel, I enjoyed the deep dive into this hand.
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