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Old 08-17-2015, 09:18 AM   #1
johnnyBuz
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Diamond PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Apparently you are supposed to wait longer than I normally do between streets (see Lapidator) so I guess I'll draw this one out as I expect the discussion will be divisive.

Hero is 28 year old white male. I've been at the table for just over an hour, bought in for $500 and sitting on $750 now. The table is pretty soft which means I'm looking to play a little more aggressive than usual. Only shown down one hand where I had 22 in the BB, flopped a set on 962r board, SB led $15, I called, one other caller. Turn 4 SB checks, I bet $45, SB calls. River 8, SB checks, I bet $150, SB calls and MHIG.

Villain is a mid-20's introverted type. Hasn't said a word to anyone at the table (listening to music) while the rest of the table is yucking it up having a good time. Naturally, this person paints a target on their back as someone whose money I would like to take, if for no other reason than for principal. Villain is sitting on $1000 and directly to Hero's left. I haven't seen him showdown a hand yet but he has 3! me twice already in an hour. He is mostly coming in for a raise when he plays a hand but seems to be targeting me more than most, either just calling my raises behind or 3! (not sure why).

Hand 1: ($500 effective)

One limper
Hero raises AQo OTB to $25
V 3! to $70 from the SB
Hero folds

Hand 2: ($750 effective)

One limper
Hero raises TT OTB to $25
V 3! to $70 from SB
Hero calls
Flop: Jc3d3c
V bets $75
Hero raises to $200
V calls $200
Turn: K (check/check)
River: Q (villain shoves/hero folds and says "AK is good.")

OTTH,

Effective stacks: $750.
Hero is BTN, V is SB, MP is irrelevant

MP limps
Hero (BTN) looks down at QT and decides to...
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Old 08-17-2015, 09:51 AM   #2
SpexDome
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

I'd raise small, 10 or 15. We'd like to be able to call a 3-bet profitably in position. His 3-bets were $70 whenb you bet 25, maybe we can see a flop for $50 here.
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Old 08-17-2015, 10:05 AM   #3
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Hand 2: Don't raise flop.

OP Hand: The guy 3-bet your BTN open from SB 2x in an hour.

Maybe he's getting cards, but I think there's reason to think he is 3-betting wide over your BTN opens.

I like limping BTN.

Limp/call.

You'll get to play in the best possible position with a hand that plays very well deep and in position, and you likely have card advantage (or at least parity) against a possible wide raising range from the V in SB and the calling range of the original limper.

You'll get to the flop with a very high SPR with a hand with OK hot/cold equity and especially strong post-flop equity / implied odds in the very best position against a guy who will have the worst position, could be getting out of line, and who you want to stack. What's not to like?

If everyone limps along, that's totally fine. From a different position in MP/LP (where we aren't guaranteed to play the hand with the best position) or with a different villain dynamic, I would consider coming in for a raise. But in this spot, I'd limp/call.
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Old 08-17-2015, 10:08 AM   #4
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

2 hands is not enough for me to assume he is three betting light, so I would just go and make it $25 again.

If we believe he is three betting us light, are we considering 4 betting with some trash like this?

If we are just going to fold to a 3 bet we might be better just folding pre and nitting it up for awhile. Or seat/table changing.
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Old 08-17-2015, 10:15 AM   #5
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman View Post
I like limping BTN.
We've only been 3-bet twice. So there really isn't a guarantee that V will make an aggressive play from the SB if we limp. I think it's way more likely that we see a 4-way limped pot.

We want V to make a mistake. And we want him to do it by making aggressive plays out of position, when we have strong/playable hands.

Hero has been playing "a little more aggressive" than usual, and Villain is a focused introvert. The limp may look suspicious.
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Old 08-17-2015, 10:19 AM   #6
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

I am with Willy. I like the limp here. Nice hand in position.

Edit: I think the fact that the limp looks suspicious is even more reason to limp -- that was actually part of my thinking.
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Old 08-17-2015, 10:23 AM   #7
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
I am with Willy. I like the limp here. Nice hand in position.

Edit: I think the fact that the limp looks suspicious is even more reason to limp -- that was actually part of my thinking.
Wouldn't that encourage V to limp along too?

If the guys is paying attention, he'll know that an aggressive winning player limping his button is highly unusual. It doesn't sound like he's fishy enough to say "ooh, button looks weak...raisy daisy"
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Old 08-17-2015, 10:33 AM   #8
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Quote:
Originally Posted by kookiemonster View Post
If we believe he is three betting us light, are we considering 4 betting with some trash like this?

If we are just going to fold to a 3 bet we might be better just folding pre and nitting it up for awhile. Or seat/table changing.
Or we could limp QTs, which has decent high card value against likely ranges in this dynamic (BTN vs. SB) even regardless of our history and strong post-flop equity in the very best position at a table with fairly deep stacks relative to the pot size.

Definitely never folding this on the BTN in this spot.

4-betting is a mistake. If you 4-bet, you enter spew territory. A 4-bet treats your hand like ATC because V will very likely 5-bet or fold but he won't call oop for ~1/2 of stacks. And if he does call, it's not a good thing. Most likely he'd only call a 4-bet as a trap / never fold anyway.

Also and worse, 4-betting totally undermines our positional advantage. Being in position here with QTs with deep stacks is a HUGE advantage. It's easy to forget the value of position... position is the most important thing.

I agree 2 hands isn't usually enough to say V is 3-betting light... but it's now 2 hands in 1 hour with this exact BTN vs. SB dynamic. In an hour, we probably only have an "n" or only 2 or 3. Yes, it's just 2 hands, but I think it's reasonable to think we're starting to see a trend, and I see an increased likelihood that we get 3-bet if we raise... and limping isn't a bad option at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpexDome View Post
We've only been 3-bet twice. So there really isn't a guarantee that V will make an aggressive play from the SB if we limp. I think it's way more likely that we see a 4-way limped pot.

We want V to make a mistake. And we want him to do it by making aggressive plays out of position, when we have strong/playable hands.

Hero has been playing "a little more aggressive" than usual, and Villain is a focused introvert. The limp may look suspicious.
Again, so what? Let's say we limp, and V surprises me a little bit - instead of raising, he checks his BB. Maybe SB completed as well. And of course, the first limper continues, so we're 4-way to the flop in a limper pot.

We have QTs in the best possible position possible in a game where position is most important and stacks are very deep, which is a perfectly fine outcome for our hand and particularly excellent for our position primarily because we get to see what everyone does first and we get the last say as to what kind of pot size we want to play and how we want to play it.

4-way limped pot in this spot? Not a terrible outcome at all. It's a terrible outcome if we raise BTN and get 3-bet again.

If you want V to make a mistake, OK. He'll make the biggest mistakes post-flop out of position with deep stacks. If you raise pre, you're fairly unlikely to force him into a big mistake. He can fold pre (never a big mistake), call pre (rarely a big mistake), or 3-bet pre (not a big mistake, and, even given history, I think we have to fold our QTs... the way to adjust / play this spot does not involve being a pre- or post-flop hero with QTs).
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Old 08-17-2015, 10:40 AM   #9
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Even in position, I'd say it's hard to make money with QT suited, 4-ways, with an SPR over 30.

We'd have to flop huge, and get three streets of value in order to win a big pot or a stack here.
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Old 08-17-2015, 10:53 AM   #10
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpexDome View Post
Wouldn't that encourage V to limp along too?

If the guys is paying attention, he'll know that an aggressive winning player limping his button is highly unusual. It doesn't sound like he's fishy enough to say "ooh, button looks weak...raisy daisy"
we really donīt mind if heīs limping along.
so far, "MP is irrelevant" is very bad, OP. if we want to PAHWY, we have to see it from your perspective. all we know thus far is that SB is likely an aggressive, somewhat decent player, but he only is in the sb. MP is far more important at this point, is he deep, short, capable of l/r, limping all sorts of trash, table mark we want to iso, live reg who mostly has PPs in this spot, old nit who raises QQ+ and limps AQ, AJ, AT, KQ?
far more important at this point in the hand.

i like overlimping as default, isoing the guy when he is the mark, weaktight or both are deep.
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Old 08-17-2015, 10:56 AM   #11
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

I don't mind if he limps along. We have position and a hand that plays fine multi-way in position. Plus, we can use that position even if we don't hit.
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Old 08-17-2015, 10:56 AM   #12
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpexDome View Post
Even in position, I'd say it's hard to make money with QT suited, 4-ways, with an SPR over 30.

We'd have to flop huge, and get three streets of value in order to win a big pot or a stack here.
Right. But that's kind of the "worst case scenario" in a limp. And it's really not a bad outcome.

I do think there's an excellent chance V will raise from SB if we limp.

And if we raise ourselves pre-flop, there is every chance we get 3-bet.

Yes, if we were readless or V had different tendencies, then pre-flop would be a raise. It probably is a raise 95%+ of the time. I'm adjusting to V by limping, and while we can't say for sure V was 3-betting light in the past BTN vs SB situations, I think it's enough of a sample at this point that it's worthwhile to adjust. The fact that he's even 3-betting at all already significantly differentiates him from a majority of 2/5 villains.
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Old 08-17-2015, 11:07 AM   #13
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

MP is relevant to this decision, as is BB
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Old 08-17-2015, 11:07 AM   #14
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Grunch: (And I'll only comment on this hand, not the history hands for now.)

Normally this is a raise, $25-35.

However, with a 3b happy player on my left, I'm not really happy about raising here with QTs.

Limp expecting to call if SB opens, and fold if MP l/r (because I don't want to be between MP and SB).
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Old 08-17-2015, 11:18 AM   #15
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

MP is a fit-or-fold rec player. Stack of $550.
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Old 08-17-2015, 11:21 AM   #16
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Hand 2: ($750 effective)

One limper
Hero raises TT OTB to $25
V 3! to $70 from SB
Hero calls
Flop: Jc3d3c
V bets $75
Hero raises to $200
V calls $200
Turn: K (check/check)
River: Q (villain shoves/hero folds and says "AK is good.")

OTTH,

Effective stacks: $750.
Hero is BTN, V is SB, MP is irrelevant

MP limps
Hero (BTN) looks down at QT and decides to...
Hand 2 is worth,discussing maybe in another thread. Preflop looks fine. Flop looks incredibly spwey

Obviously raising qts. If he's 3bet a bunch already and you're deepish I don't mind defending against the Resteal.

Also agree that 2 3bs in a small sample means not much. You're going to make your money at 2/5 value betting recs and stations. Don't wanna variance battle a potentially competent player for small edges. Potential seat change if he's directly to your left is a better adjustment then battling "this seat is unlucky"
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Old 08-17-2015, 01:45 PM   #17
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
MP is a fit-or-fold rec player. Stack of $550.
i would raise then, 20. i donīt mind a limp at all, and although there is the possibility sb is 3betting us light, imo we donīt have enough samplesize for that to be confindent, and we can also somewhat assume that he rather play a hand mw with fit or fold rec and maybe a weak bb defending range than vs you although he might have a different view of you than you have yourself.

still, raising here. calling the 3bet too, unless itīs absurdly big.
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Old 08-17-2015, 02:26 PM   #18
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Please don't raise and call a 3! With it with it, there are better candidates For that.
Hope this wasn't and ego/**** measuring type of spot.

Limp behind and let's see a flop.
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Old 08-17-2015, 03:39 PM   #19
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

I think at your stack depth, limping is fine.

Whether we limp and it limps around or whether we limp/call, we're going to have great position, and raising, which effectively shortens the stacks, doesn't really help our hand that much.

The interesting question is at what stack depth should we raise. But I think $750 is too small.

By the way, if we didn't have this read that the SB was aggressive and liked to 3bet us, I could see raising here. But the SB seems like exactly the kind of player who will frequently 3bet us if we raise and/or will check/raise a lot of flops we might want to c-bet. He will assume we are raising because we have the button, not because we have cards. That's exactly a time I would NOT want to raise with a hand like QTs that plays well postflop.
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Old 08-17-2015, 03:44 PM   #20
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman View Post
Right. But that's kind of the "worst case scenario" in a limp. And it's really not a bad outcome.

I do think there's an excellent chance V will raise from SB if we limp.

Why? What information are you using to come to that conclusion? Because he 3-bet twice? I agree that within an hour its a little suspicious, but he definitely had a premium hand at least one of those times. And 3-betting is a completely different animal than opening a pot from the SB. You've taken an obscenely liberal interpretation of some pre-flop play from a mere two hands.

And if we raise ourselves pre-flop, there is every chance we get 3-bet.

Again, we REALLY don't know that. We know that he 3-bet once with a good hand, and MAY have 3-bet light one other time.

Yes, if we were readless or V had different tendencies, then pre-flop would be a raise. It probably is a raise 95%+ of the time. I'm adjusting to V by limping, and while we can't say for sure V was 3-betting light in the past BTN vs SB situations, I think it's enough of a sample at this point that it's worthwhile to adjust. the fact that he's even 3-betting at all already significantly differentiates him from a majority of 2/5 villains.

Are you implying that the adjustment to make against a light 3-bettor is to limp more, but without the intention of limp/re-raising?

If raising is correct 95% of the time, I fail to see what makes this the 5% exception.


see the red commentary
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Old 08-17-2015, 03:53 PM   #21
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Whatever you think his 3b range is, limping is not the answer. You are not out of line to raise QTs on the button. He cannot punish you for it by 3betting extra wide. You deserve to raise here. Raise
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Old 08-17-2015, 04:04 PM   #22
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

r/c. Be ready to float a lot of flops.
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Old 08-17-2015, 04:21 PM   #23
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

grunch pre

probably raising to 25 again.

2x in an hour isnt necessarily targeting, but i would want to figure it out and raising does that.
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Old 08-17-2015, 04:28 PM   #24
fitzthetaxman
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

raise to 25
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Old 08-17-2015, 05:31 PM   #25
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Re: PAHWM: 2/5 NL - QTs On The Button vs. Possible Light 3-Bettor

Lol at making conclusions from two 3bets. You guys are so bad. Raise this all day. It's not light. Hand 2 is a disaster, btw.
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