I think this thread whole thread might be about that exact idea. How horrifically bad it is to focus on how much pain you'll feel if everyone folds, rather than focus on playing poker.

Check/calling or check/raising? Having this check thru would be a disaster.

Anyway ...

Pot: ~$255

Flop: A K 3

Turn: 3

V1 checks
Hero bets $125
V2 calls $125
V1 folds

My thought process here was similar to the flop, balancing the dichotomy between getting value with your monsters (because they don't come around often) vs. not scaring off the unsuspecting muppets from coming to the party. The only problem with these half pot bets is it makes it difficult to get stacks in. In hindsight, I would have sized this larger, like $175, maybe even $200. With two V's coming along you'd have to think one of them has the NFD, but if so, why no raises?

The one time you want someone to actually raise and no one can comply! Alas, it appears my first $2000 pot will have to wait.

Pot: ~$505

River: 9

Hero?

Your line so far is fine. I am never checking any street. I'm bet bet betting. Also I am not potting the flop to 90, why scare everyone away from that wet flop? I want them to try and draw out. That is where I make my money, by making them put more money into the pot when I am the favorite by a light year.

I would bet half to two thirds otf and since they both called I would bet about 175/185 ott.

V1 is UTG so I am assuming he checked the river to you? The sad thing is the flush came and he checked. He's trying to get to showdown as cheaply as possible so we have to make a bet that he will call. You have to use your judgement here based on all the reads you have on him, what the highest bet he will call is, then subtract about 20 bucks just to make sure.

Also the flush might scare him away anyway. I would prob value about 300 but if you don't think he'll call it I don't mind milking him with 200. The even bets look more bluffy and not based on anything else. I am going with all raises and jamming if we have money left so if it's 33 it's a cooler. I'm not bet folding there.

I think there is a time to check top set and a time to bet it. If the board was dry and villans are basically drawing dead at best then I don't mind a check. There may not be tons of draws on this board but there are enough. When we bet we target a range that is willing to put more money in the pot.

Sure they will fold under pairs etc but is so unlikely that they catch up. I prefer to target the range of hands that are never folding with a large bet so we can get stacks in. We never want to allow the flop to check through in this spot and get owned by random cut shots.and flush draws.

As for the turn play I am betting 150-175 and hoping we get a couple callers. There is not a better card in the whole deck except for another K.

Sorry, V2 MP called the $125 on the turn and V1 UTG folded on the turn. So Hero is first to act with MP behind on the river.

FLop: Smaller sizing likely widened V2 overcalling range (FD, SD, pp horribly mining one more street) as it still kept your range slightly more vulnerable to it (you weren't high beaming AA KK AK) and was cheap enough to just call it against 2 players OOP - while this didn't induce a raise, I think larger sizing would get a fold from one of the two Vs (or both) which we don't want so early in the hand, so I thought 55 was cool.

Turn: Though less likely to get calls from both on paired board, I'd say a similar relative size (145-155) keeps both Vs in a similar spot V1 might hold Axss and easily call now with reasonable SD chops/wins and if not that strong, the 3 really didn't change much else for any non draw he holds. Bottom line is, it doesn't matter anymore, we just cannot pass the threshold for a V1 call which at the smaller sizing COULD suck V2 to the river (if he's awful)

River: Perfect card, but can't get value by checking and PSB will look wildly strong and will get too many folds. A little larger sizing here since flushes won't be raising anyway and Ax may be calling just the same.

look at the board like you don't like it, then dribble in 285. Hopefully he got there and will raise you. Don't check. The flush might still scare him anyway and he'll check it back.

Bout tree fiddy Johnny Buzz.

I thought you were OOP for the hand, guess I read that wrong. In that case I'm def betting flop and turn, 2/3 pot same as if I had Ax. River I think your best play is to check. V should not have 3x here and now that the flush came in will probably fold Ax or Kx to a third barrel and should bet a flush like 97% of the time.

IMO - when ck River, V1 flush bet sizing (that never calls a ck-r) would be very similar to our bet sizing (that always calls and though rare, COULD raise) ... Plus wouldn't V1 ck back Ax Kx more often than he calls (even if it's small) Is he really betting Ax?, Kx?

We allow him to bluff by ck, so it's close, but anyone who just called 2 streets with a draw against this line seems unlikely to fire.

$60 on the flop. $120 on the turn. The case ace is a small part of their range. $250 on the river. Hopefully we get raised by a flush.

is this who we are suggesting will bluff the river?

I am never checking unless he was a guy who will bluff 100% when checked to.

Flushes are only a very small part of his overall range. We can't assume he has a flush

I'd bet anything under 300, something like 275-295. May not make a huge difference but I think your average villan is going to be thinking lol pot odds.

V's range should be mostly flush draws....what else can he have really

Whatever you bet on the turn...

Obv call shove

Or you could just shove. I'd probably make the call based on V

Pot: ~$505

Flop: A K 3

Turn: 3

River: 9

Hero looks at board slightly perturbed and meekly checks his AK
V2 bets $150
Hero?

I checked the turn because flush draws seemed like the most likely continuing range of V2. Unless he thinks I have AQ or worse, it wouldn't make sense for V to continue to the river. I think a nut flush would have raised at some point so now we are looking for the biggest bet that will get called.

This also brings up a good point about betting vs. checking. I could have just led for $350 or so. I thought if I checked, V would bet more than lol $150 meaning I could raise to a larger effective size than if I just led out. As it stands, I probably can't go too big here and still expect a call.

Shove or click it back.

Given your line...AI.

Sometimes I underestimate the elasticity of calling ranges on the river.

Sometimes I don't.

I really just want to lead the river with an over shove.

What, it's 800 into 505?

Do you really think V folds a nut flush?

I don't like checking. I did consider it, but I think it borders on FPS. I think he's gonna call a huge bet with hands he will bet himself, so I don't see much purpose in a check.

I like open shipping. But again, river calling range elasticity is an area I'm working on ...

He's got $350 in the middle already...shove is the only option now.

Open shove River sounds kinda cool since nobody ever expects that with a boat here. Would probably need a good read that he calls an over shove with less than nut flush though.

Coming late to this... Good evidence for me that I'm way more accustomed to 1/2 than 2/5.

Flop: I'm in the $50-60 camp. I would like multiple callers, and would rather have Ax not get cold feet against my likely AK just yet.

Turn: $100-125. Paired board and only one card to come. I'm never checking here, but I want my villains deciding their odds are too good.

River: $250-350. Since he's new to the table and relatively unknown, I'd lean toward 350. I'd go lower if I thought it'd induce a raise from the nfd.

I particularly don't like the river check-raise+hollywood. This seems like a strong enough tell that villain will muck a lot of flushes in disgust.

Overshove is tempting in theory, but I'd want more of a read on the new player before I tried it. In particular, are we confident that he brought multiple buy-ins? It's his second hand at the table. If he's one of those regs who likes to come, play for a few hours, and hopefully leave a winner, then he's going to be less focused on pot odds and ranges and more focused on the long drive home minutes after he got here.

grunch. $75 on flop. yes u pick up pot alot but even if u check u rarely win much unless they turn a set. bet to get value from draws and Ax. also cheking gives free card to gut shot

A good starting point in figuring this out is to calculate the % of pot sized bet to make on all 3 streets that would be required to get it in with a single villain. With $950 effective, it is approx 89%. This requires V to be at the top of his range. $90 in the pot pre. Bet $80 on flop and get one caller... 90 + 80 + 80 = 250. Turn bet 220. 250 + 220 + 220 = 690. River shove is 620.

Hero's bets are 30 + 80 + 220 + 620 = 950.

Ideally the river would be a smaller % than the others to make it harder for V to fold.

This is just a starting point as you also have to consider all the others factors about your image, villain's tendencies, etc.

As played, $55 on the flop too small. You want to bet bigger than that to find out if either villain might let you stack them off. Plus, missed FD's will only pay you on the flop and turn. Bet $75 or $80. If both call $75, pot is now $315 and SPR makes it much easier to stack them off (one, if not both), especially with these turn & river cards setting up a full house > flush.

I'm not a fan of the river check. If we just bet a sizable amount we get looked up a lot more than if we Xraise river. River Xraise is notorious for being the nuts and most villans know this.

As played I am min raising the river. Most people just can't bring themselves to fold even though it is incredibly strong.

I agree with all of this [fyp].