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Old 07-11-2018, 11:14 AM   #26
johnnyBuz
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
The point is that even if he ONLY has a diamond and his range has nothing else in it, you still gave him very close to direct odds and if you EVER pay him off when a diamond hits,,,even once in 20-30 times, he is correct to call your $350.
Then don't pay him off. Just because you think the math is "close enough" doesn't mean he's not making a calling mistake.

You're still leaving $450 behind that he can bluff the river with when he misses.

He's probably very wide at this point. He can be as wide as A5:x, A4x etc. given the preflop action and OP's read. Focusing on the top 1% of combos he can have like KJx and making your decision versus only that hand is incredibly lazy.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:01 PM   #27
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

OP, why don't you think V has hands like KQdd/AQdd/ATdd in his range? Those seem like viable holdings to have in his call/call range pre given the action. A lot of players are too wide here and have KT/QT/K9/Q9dd in their range. Frankly, at this stack depth, he probably can have and should have 87/98/T9dd in his range as well.

Obviously he has more in range than just flushes, and we haz a set. I'm going 400 on turn, rest of it on non-diamond rivers or the Kd. But I don't think your ranging is reasonable unless you have reads you didn't provide.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:16 PM   #28
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

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Originally Posted by SwolyswoND View Post
OP, why don't you think V has hands like KQdd/AQdd/ATdd in his range? Those seem like viable holdings to have in his call/call range pre given the action. A lot of players are too wide here and have KT/QT/K9/Q9dd in their range. Frankly, at this stack depth, he probably can have and should have 87/98/T9dd in his range as well.
OP provided a live read that BTN was reluctant to call the $60. Any of those suited Broadway hands you mentioned would be slam dunk insta-calls on the BTN.

That, combined with his flop tank call, leaves his range pretty weak in my opinion. The only hand I am worried about paying off would be ATx that rivers a gutter ball Qx, but I'm fine paying that hand off if he bluffs all his other AXx combos.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:24 PM   #29
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

We know that those hands should be slam-dunk insta-calls, but not every LLSNL player knows that. Most players clam up when facing a 3bet with anything less than a premium.

I still think that even with OP's read, small suited connectors are in V's call-call range pre. And they can and probably should just call flop against Hero's sizing, so as not to isolate against only bigger flushes.

I reiterate that even with made flushes in V's range, I'm betting turn and shipping safe rivers cause we haz set. But I think V's range is not as weak as we're making it out to be.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:27 PM   #30
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

I mean the guy is sitting on a deep action table that just saw 6 people put $60 into the pot. I don’t think he’s going to be clamming up with KQ on the BTN.

He still has 7 people to act after him on the flop so I highly doubt a flopped flush would flat the $275.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:36 PM   #31
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

These are fair points, but I see way too many LLSNL villains just flat a flopped low/middle flush, even multiway, to exclude it completely from their ranges. They have the flawed thinking that they either want to slowplay and wait until the turn to raise, or they want to see a safe turn card before committing.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:17 PM   #32
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

He may have a flopped flush. I'm not excluding it completely. I already prefaced in my first post I'm fine taking 66 to the felt here on the flop or turn. If he's got a flush the money is going in regardless and whatever we bet on the turn we're priced in to boat up.

The real question is how to get villain's stack from the majority of his range which includes a lot of weak hands with <20% equity.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:53 PM   #33
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

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OP provided a live read that BTN was reluctant to call the $60. Any of those suited Broadway hands you mentioned would be slam dunk insta-calls on the BTN.
+1. Those would be snap calling pre (if he's as good as I think he is) but he almost folded .
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Old 07-11-2018, 02:00 PM   #34
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

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He may have a flopped flush. I'm not excluding it completely. I already prefaced in my first post I'm fine taking 66 to the felt here on the flop or turn. If he's got a flush the money is going in regardless and whatever we bet on the turn we're priced in to boat up.

The real question is how to get villain's stack from the majority of his range which includes a lot of weak hands with <20% equity.
I agree, I was simply voicing my opinion on OP's ranging for V, which I don't think is accurate.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:35 PM   #35
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

The reason I posted this hand is because I second guessed my river jam. He flopped the NF (and was hesitant to call 60 pre with Ad3d when about the whole table was in the hand). So one of my weaknesses is I give players too much respect, thinking they're a better player than they really are. Havn't played with this guy that much besides the past several week regularly, I probably should have let him try to value the flush, thinking I could possibly be check/evaluating, and maybe I would have saved $500 in the hand (of course if he checks back I'm folding to a bet on a diamond river).

Last edited by Playbig2000; 07-12-2018 at 07:41 PM. Reason: vocab
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:55 PM   #36
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

You skipped the turn action.

You bet $300, he called, and then you shipped river?
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:13 PM   #37
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

turn jam*
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:30 PM   #38
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

Yah I wasn’t a fan of a shove because I think it isolates us versus the top of his range when there is still value to be had from the weaker parts.

Stack sizes are awkward which is why I recommended a small bet, but it’s really hard to pick a size that doesn’t give him direct odds and still leaves enough behind for him to feel like he can bluff river with and have FE.

I don’t think there’s any way you don’t go broke here playing his hand optimally.
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:19 AM   #39
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

Tough beat.

Yup, smaller turn sizing, maybe 1/2 of V remaining stack would save $350-400ish on an unimproved river.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:48 AM   #40
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

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Yah I wasnít a fan of a shove because I think it isolates us versus the top of his range when there is still value to be had from the weaker parts.

Stack sizes are awkward which is why I recommended a small bet, but itís really hard to pick a size that doesnít give him direct odds and still leaves enough behind for him to feel like he can bluff river with and have FE.

I donít think thereís any way you donít go broke here playing his hand optimally.
Yeah all of this given awkward stacks and how V played it (tricksy even if he he didn't do that on purpose).
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:50 AM   #41
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

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Tough beat.

Yup, smaller turn sizing, maybe 1/2 of V remaining stack would save $350-400ish on an unimproved river.
I doubt it. Unless the guy is an idiot he is shoving over any turn bet we make and we aren't folding so I think it plays the same way.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:56 AM   #42
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

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I doubt it. Unless the guy is an idiot he is shoving over any turn bet we make and we aren't folding so I think it plays the same way.
Maybe not if we checked the flop..not that I wanted to check the flop because I thought he flopped a flush. I just think its reasonable to play a smaller pot with a set in a spot like this. Also, OPs stated read kind of threw everyone off, because A3s is a great hand to play multiway and OPs read made it seem like villain couldnt have flopped a flush.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:41 AM   #43
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

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Maybe not if we checked the flop..not that I wanted to check the flop because I thought he flopped a flush. I just think its reasonable to play a smaller pot with a set in a spot like this. Also, OPs stated read kind of threw everyone off, because A3s is a great hand to play multiway and OPs read made it seem like villain couldnt have flopped a flush.
Fair enough. Just not sure we can extrapolate one hand into something (checking the flop) we should do all that often.
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Old 07-13-2018, 05:16 PM   #44
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Re: PAHWM 2/5 Deep with 66 in the CO

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Fair enough. Just not sure we can extrapolate one hand into something (checking the flop) we should do all that often.
Agreed...when I posted that I would check the flop I did say betting might be better overall.
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