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Old 03-06-2017, 04:07 PM   #1
soxfan43
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PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

This fun hand came up the other day, so I decided to post. I'll try to give 12-24 hours in between streets to allow for comments.

V1: Hero has lots of history with this Villian & have posted hands against him in the past. Very swingy player who raises a lot pre, donks out at a lot of flops and is tough to bluff on later streets. Hero has gotten the best of him in recent weeks.

V2: Seemed tight, but no real reads on him in the first 4 hours of playing. Might have only showed down 2-3 hands. Another player had mentioned that V2 was "solid" earlier.

OTTH:

V1 ($850) utg+1 limps
MP ($900) limps
HJ ($800) limps
V2 ($960) button limps
SB ($600) completes
Hero ($2750) with 4c4s in BB. Hero checks the option.

Flop ($30): Qd 4h 2c
SB checks, Hero checks hoping V1 leads out, V1 checks, MP checks, HJ checks, Button bets $20. Hero?
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Old 03-06-2017, 05:58 PM   #2
Playbig2000
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

don't check, just lead out 6 ways for 20

as played call. If a few more players call, lead out ott, don't risk it getting checked around.
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Old 03-06-2017, 06:07 PM   #3
samo
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

Call.

Seems like your table dynamic is passive (limp around), so consider leading flop.
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Old 03-06-2017, 07:58 PM   #4
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

Definitely leading at the flop, we need to start building a pot here, maybe 17-18ish
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Old 03-06-2017, 08:28 PM   #5
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

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Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
don't check, just lead out 6 ways for 20

as played call. If a few more players call, lead out ott, don't risk it getting checked around.
^
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Old 03-06-2017, 08:31 PM   #6
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

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Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
don't check, just lead out 6 ways for 20

as played call. If a few more players call, lead out ott, don't risk it getting checked around.
+1
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Old 03-06-2017, 08:42 PM   #7
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

As played, click-it-back. For the moment, I'm planning on trying to stack off given nobody should have QQ here.

But bet your hand the first time 'round.
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Old 03-06-2017, 08:47 PM   #8
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

I like the check here. If the board were a little more coordinated, I would agree that you should lead out, like others are suggesting. But on this flop, I like check calling because: 1) a Q is likely to bet this flop for you; 2) you block 2nd pair; 3) you're not likely to get more than two streets from mid-pocket pairs; and 4) you can't really be drawn out on. So why not check and let someone make a second-best hand if there aren't any Qs.

As played, just call. If V2 has a Q, he likely has a weak kicker since he didn't raise preflop. If you raise, you may fold out his weak Qs and you prevent him from bluffing the turn. Plus by calling you allow others to come along, which is fine on this dry flop with your basically nutted hand.
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:14 PM   #9
EastCoastHoosier
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

Bet flop for 15/20. With 6 players this is standard for me. At my room I see people spaz more against a lead then vs a check call. Yes, sometimes all 5 fold but I'm not playing for 1 20$ flop bluff.

What do you check call flop besides 53 and A5/A4 that can ever make a hand to put in big bets later? Say a 9o comes on turn and you check raise? What will they call with?

As played call. Donk turn if 1 or more other call. Check raise if nobody else calls.

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Old 03-07-2017, 01:19 AM   #10
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

Would start with a 1.5x pot overbet. Their calling ranges are super inelastic

AP easy call
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Old 03-07-2017, 02:42 AM   #11
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

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Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
As played, click-it-back. For the moment, I'm planning on trying to stack off given nobody should have QQ here.

But bet your hand the first time 'round.
What hands are going to stack off with this dry flop besides 22?

I'm in the call camp. Allows other players plus button to pick up equity on the turn and keeps them in the pot with weak ranges.
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:48 AM   #12
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by soxfan43 View Post
This fun hand came up the other day, so I decided to post. I'll try to give 12-24 hours in between streets to allow for comments.

V1: Hero has lots of history with this Villian & have posted hands against him in the past. Very swingy player who raises a lot pre, donks out at a lot of flops and is tough to bluff on later streets. Hero has gotten the best of him in recent weeks.

V2: Seemed tight, but no real reads on him in the first 4 hours of playing. Might have only showed down 2-3 hands. Another player had mentioned that V2 was "solid" earlier.

OTTH:

V1 ($850) utg+1 limps
MP ($900) limps
HJ ($800) limps
V2 ($960) button limps
SB ($600) completes
Hero ($2750) with 4c4s in BB. Hero checks the option.

Flop ($30): Qd 4h 2c
SB checks, Hero checks hoping V1 leads out, V1 checks, MP checks, HJ checks, Button bets $20. Hero?
I thought a check raise would blow most weak queens out of the hand, so I decided to just call. V1 calls, MP calls, rest fold.

Turn ($110): 8s

Hero checks, V1 checks, MP checks, Button bets $60. Hero?
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:56 AM   #13
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

Since you didnt lead the flop and you didnt check raise the flop, and then you got a herd of callers, you really need to lead out on the turn to trap all those callers in between you and the aggressor (the button). If you check raise now, youre going to blow them all out of the pot on the driest board in history.

If you lead the turn you make more money.
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:58 AM   #14
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

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Originally Posted by Redskins 47 View Post
What hands are going to stack off with this dry flop besides 22?

I'm in the call camp. Allows other players plus button to pick up equity on the turn and keeps them in the pot with weak ranges.
I said I'm trying to stack off. You won't necessarily know which hands come along until you offer to drive.
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Old 03-07-2017, 10:09 AM   #15
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

Are you going to raise somewhere or not?

If not, then its pointless to have a strong hand.

Your position sucks and you likely will have everyone check it back OTR. Raise now.
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Old 03-07-2017, 10:17 AM   #16
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

You are never getting stacks in unless V hits two pair or has 22.

This is the problem with a limped pot. Pot geometry will make this almost impossible.

You'd have been better off leading the flop yourself for $20.
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Old 03-07-2017, 10:24 AM   #17
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

Make it at least $30 on the flop. There is no PFR to check to. Even if there is, I'd donk.

With three players left to act, call and lead all turns.
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Old 03-07-2017, 10:27 AM   #18
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

Ugh, I guess call the turn bet. A check-raise gets everything but two pair+ to fold. Lead all rivers.
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Old 03-07-2017, 11:14 AM   #19
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

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Originally Posted by Nice_Guy_Eddie View Post
Ugh, I guess call the turn bet. A check-raise gets everything but two pair+ to fold. Lead all rivers.
This.

Call the turn and hope that the other callers come along too. There's not really anything that can call a check/raise. Then lead the river big.
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Old 03-07-2017, 11:35 AM   #20
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

Should've bet flop. AP, call is fine.

Should've led turn. I can't for the life of me figure out why you didn't. AP, I guess you have to flat and hope for overcallers.

Lead river huge. But boy oh boy did you leave tons of value on the table here.
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Old 03-07-2017, 11:38 AM   #21
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

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Originally Posted by SwolyswoND View Post
Should've bet flop. AP, call is fine.

Should've led turn. I can't for the life of me figure out why you didn't. AP, I guess you have to flat and hope for overcallers.

Lead river huge. But boy oh boy did you leave tons of value on the table here.
Unless the river is an A or 6
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Old 03-07-2017, 12:05 PM   #22
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

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Originally Posted by Acquittal View Post
I like the check here. If the board were a little more coordinated, I would agree that you should lead out, like others are suggesting.
If the board were more coordinated, you would check with the intention of raising so that way you didn't get a drawy board with three callers. On this flop, you don't really care if you get three callers, because it's quite unlikely that any turn card gives them a better hand.
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Old 03-07-2017, 01:59 PM   #23
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

Call turn and x/r river huge. No other choice given the positions
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Old 03-07-2017, 06:52 PM   #24
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

Prefer a turn lead, nevertheless ap, CR to $140. We are uncertain V2 will go for 3 streets of value, so let's try to extract now rather than risk a river ck back.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:35 PM   #25
soxfan43
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Re: PAHWM: $2/$5 44 in the big blind

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I thought a check raise would blow most weak queens out of the hand, so I decided to just call. V1 calls, MP calls, rest fold.

Turn ($110): 8s

Hero checks, V1 checks, MP checks, Button bets $60. Hero?
I agree that it is time to get money flowing in this pot & raise to $175. Folds to button who thinks for about 30 seconds and calls.

River ($460): 9s

Hero leads $240. V2 takes about a minute and shoves over the top for around $750.

Hero?
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