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Old 05-12-2017, 01:26 AM   #101
whereisit
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

StimAbuser with some good posts.

Dizzy, I think the range you assign villain is much too wide after he raises here.

ITT, I agree with johnny that if he ever shows up with AQ here, johnny can quit posting for a month. Edit: also agree that 89s should be well within calling range this deep.

In game I am probably calling, seeing a blank turn, and hating my life. The biggest problem is, even when the board pairs Q or J, we could still be behind and it is not always guaranteed villain will stack off with AK or 89. Assuming hero's reads on villain are correct, I think folding is fine. These guys are literally never going crazy (4x!!!) without a premium hand, and since we have near the bottom range of raise-able flop hands, just muck it and move on.
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Old 05-12-2017, 01:26 AM   #102
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

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Originally Posted by ITT666 View Post
And you really think this guy is a decent player? Starting to not sound like it.

Anyway, I'd still like to know what percent of the time you think this villain will 3-bet QQ and AK pre and what percent of the time he will flat them pre? Especially for AK.

Because the answer to that question is what really decides if this can ever be a fold here or not imo
I said "he's a decent reg. Pretty tight pre and plays ABC. I'd say he's good if he mixed it up, bluffed and semi bluffed more"

Yeah.. he's decent. Nothing special. Straight forward.

Dear god man I already posted how often I think he's 3 betting QQ/AK and flatting them.

Anyways we are going in circles and it's getting old.
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Old 05-12-2017, 01:38 AM   #103
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Then he folds when you 3! flop and/or bomb turn and shove river.

89s is 100% a call preflop.
I'd call if the opener raised from the hijack or cutoff.
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Old 05-12-2017, 01:42 AM   #104
ITT666
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

OK, sorry perhaps I missed one of your posts in there somewhere. I just recall you initially stating that you thought he'd usually be 3-betting pre with QQ and AK but then adding later that it's possible for him to flat with him, I don't recall seeing a post where you gave exact percentages on how often you think he would do either.

As for things dragging along in the conversation, there is an easy fix to that. Not only is this a PAHWM thread, but it's your PAHWM thread. If you feel like discussion of the flop is going around in circles you could just simply reveal how the flop action actually went down and move along to the turn.
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Old 05-12-2017, 02:23 AM   #105
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

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Originally Posted by Redskins 47 View Post
I'd call if the opener raised from the hijack or cutoff.
This has no bearing on whether 98s is a call 300 BB's deep. Of course he is going to be behind nearly 100% of your preflop raising range. But there are 3 more streets of action and 300 BB effective stacks which makes this a trivial 0 thought call, especially if $30 is your standard raise size preflop.
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Old 05-12-2017, 02:42 AM   #106
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
This has no bearing on whether 98s is a call 300 BB's deep. Of course he is going to be behind nearly 100% of your preflop raising range. But there are 3 more streets of action and 300 BB effective stacks which makes this a trivial 0 thought call, especially if $30 is your standard raise size preflop.
It does have bearing. Late position raises in full ring games are generally much looser than EP raises. Making our hand less dominated. I know 89s can flop well but more often than not we whiff the flop or flop a weak pair and that's when the trouble begins.
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Old 05-12-2017, 03:17 AM   #107
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

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It does have bearing. Late position raises in full ring games are generally much looser than EP raises. Making our hand less dominated. I know 89s can flop well but more often than not we whiff the flop or flop a weak pair and that's when the trouble begins.
Has got 50x implied and your $30 sizing says nothing about the strength of your hand (according to you) meaning many pots will be stolen post flop by villain. It's just an absolutely standard call.
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Old 05-12-2017, 03:30 AM   #108
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

Im bet/calling flop. Check/calling any non A,K,Q,J turn.
QJ is the only thing that makes sense that you beat. QK..ehhh its possible he would play it this way but the QJ feels way more likely.

Calling a river to any bet under half pot. Just cant see a straight foward abc player bombing river with QJ or QK as a bluff, especially when it seems you guys have no special dynamic going on.

AQ is also possible so far...some villains have this mindset where they raise to "protect" their hand on these sort of flop textures, and will continue to bet on blanks, and check behind all bad cards which in this case for this kind of villain would be any 8,9,T,J. But that would be read dependent.
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Old 05-12-2017, 03:40 AM   #109
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

Well at least I'm no longer the on ly one saying AQ/KQ are at least possible here.
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Old 05-12-2017, 04:27 AM   #110
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

Tough spot, I feel like I would have to call here given that he is most likely raising AK and QQ on the button. From what you said he sounds capable of calling with those hands, but in my opinion we are more likely to have them. I'm definately worried about JJ and 89s though, which I think would both be in his pre-flop call range. As long as we are balancing our bet call range with some of our AK and QQ I think we should call with 10's aswell and hope to be up agains KQ and QJ enough of the time (Who knows though with the middle aged asian guys, they always have it!!)

Im curious as to how you think he would respond to a re-raise when he has hands like JJ and 89s. When we do have AK can we get the money in on the flop? How often would you take that line? I was thinking I might re-raise with with 10 combos of AK (excluding my suited spades diamonds and hearts) and bluff raise with KK, then bet call with the rest of my AK, QQ's, JJ's, and 10's

Does this seem too tight? The tables I play at tend to be much looser than what you've described from this player so I think I would play wider at the 1-2 tables im used to.
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Old 05-12-2017, 05:18 AM   #111
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

I think this deep OOP, I might prefer a chk/call otf. Consider where you actually are in your range. You have at least 22 better hands here (16 AK combos, and 3 each of JJ and QQ), and you don't block the nuts (your KK/AA/AQ/KQ). And your range preflop is probably pretty narrow with a 6x from EP... The point is, it's going to be somewhat difficult for you to get 3 streets of value here against a worse hand.

Plus when we bet this flop, there are 12-16 cards that make turn action awkward (8/9/K/A), which will happen 25-33% of the time (depending on whether or not we consider 8 a bad card).

I really just don't mind letting people draw when the "draw" already got there on the flop. I'd rather go for two streets on turn and river once I see a clean turn card. I might take a x/c flop, lead turn line.

Once you're 4x'd on this flop from an ABC player, I think you can sometimes just let it go OOP. Again, your 6x pre range is pretty narrow, and when you nearly pot the flop, I'm expecting you to have one of your 22 better hands a lot of the time. And there could be some RIO from filling up.

I guess in game, I'm usually going to call. Maybe we'll get an opportunity to turn our hand into a bluff after a K turns...
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:23 AM   #112
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

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Originally Posted by whereisit View Post

Dizzy, I think the range you assign villain is much too wide after he raises here.
Those ranges were flop continuing ranges, not flop raising ranges
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:46 AM   #113
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

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Originally Posted by ITT666 View Post
Well at least I'm no longer the on ly one saying AQ/KQ are at least possible here.
He would have to be very nitty before I don't give him KQ but AQ may not be a raising hand on this board. A tight ABC player isn't folding AQ to the first bet on this board but a bunch would never raise either.

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Originally Posted by pocketzeroes View Post
I think this deep OOP, I might prefer a chk/call otf.
How ABC is this player? Is there any risk they are going to bluff just because hero bet? In the 2/5 group I play there are a bunch that would bet this flop just because hero checked on a scary flop and may barrel, putting hero into a guessing game with a hand that is hard to fold. One of the reasons to bet this flop is to clear out villain's air and just get the hand over with rather then get into some guessing game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
This has no bearing on whether 98s is a call 300 BB's deep.
This deep I would consider 98s a normal call also but that isn't really the question. The question is would this villain call? If he doesn't fish with middle suited connectors even when deep then it may not be in his range at all.
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:47 AM   #114
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

OP, I got lost somewhere itt. Can you repost the exact Villain ranges pre and post so I don't have to wade through pages of reasonable responses followed by you saying that hand is not in his range?
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:52 AM   #115
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PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

If he's a nit (which is what op is describing but it's not clear if this is actual read or speculation) we can make an exploitable fold I probably wouldn't though. If he's good and Agro post he should be exploiting us fairly easily though if we are folding bottom set on connected flops to a single raise just by threatening stacks.

Basically we are only then continuing with the effective nuts and I'm guessing felting the nuts. V should be able to print money.

I am also in the smaller bet sizing camp. I'm not wanting to narrow his range too much. I'd be on board with bigger flop sizing if board were also 2 tone.


Edit: I'm with sailboats here. Op says he's tight ABC but no specific reads. Then we have a bunch of rebuttals as to what hands aren't in his range as if we have detailed reads.

Flop decision (including original bet sizing) is all about that range. A bunch of guys on the internet debating villain's range with the one guy who played with him won't really accomplish much.

If we call and boat up hand will become interesting though.


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Last edited by cAmmAndo; 05-12-2017 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:19 AM   #116
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

AK run out obviously.
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:31 AM   #117
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

Late to the party. I'd go $40 instead of $50 on the flop, but otherwise I'd play this the same way.

I think some posters are succumbing to the LLSNL tendency to wrap villains in a generic package when discussing what to do. If the OP says the villain won't call with 98 preflop and the OP has a decent handle on the game (both true in this case), we need to take out 98 pf. Whether you would call or the villain should call with it is immaterial at this point. The OP was there and has played the villain. We haven't.

As played, I think we have to call. The bet sizing from a tight player suggests a "please fold, I don't want to go any further" message. He can do this with a lot of 2 pair as well as pair + SD combos to fold just yet. A call keeps our range fairly wide. That said, I'm not looking to play for stacks. I'd check the turn no matter what happens and see what the villain does. If he makes a $500 bet, I'd fold absent some other information (like the case T coming).
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:16 AM   #118
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

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Originally Posted by QuadJ View Post
How ABC is this player? Is there any risk they are going to bluff just because hero bet? In the 2/5 group I play there are a bunch that would bet this flop just because hero checked on a scary flop and may barrel, putting hero into a guessing game with a hand that is hard to fold. One of the reasons to bet this flop is to clear out villain's air and just get the hand over with rather then get into some guessing game.
Heavily disagree with the bolded portion. Villain can have a lot of Ax-suited hands, stabs from medium PPs, and hands like AJ and AT. All of these might take stabs at the pot, but would otherwise likely just fold to a bet. Anyway, we want to get value from villain's air (which I guess is really only Ax-suited), and shouldn't be excited about clearing it out.

This is a lot different than when we raise with 77 and the flop comes 2-3-8 rainbow. In that case, it's pretty hard to get value from worse, or to get better to fold, but there are just so many cards that can bring villain into the lead and we don't know which cards they are... In this case (op's hand), however, villain might hit a straight on an 8/9/K/A, but will tend to play very straightforward when we're passive on the flop and there's 4 to a broadway straight, so we don't need to worry so much about getting bluffed when a K or A peels on the turn.

Last edited by pocketzeroes; 05-12-2017 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:05 PM   #119
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

A Villain 3betting with AQ preflop with presumably lots of others behind him to isolate doesn't mean he'll necessarily 3bet AK/QQ+ on the Button when's he virtually got the active Hero already isolated (plus can setup an easy bluffcatch by having Hero barrel into his monster). I know it would be far and away my default play here, but I suck at deepstack obviously.

As played, I'd fold. He could easily be betting big with the ~nuts here simply because he doesn't want to be sucked out on a board that would normally smash a normal raisers range. We do sometimes fold the best hand, but things aren't going to get any easier on the turn OOP especially when we're only extremely happy with one card.

But folding sets and not getting to showdown with them sucks balls, imo, which is why I would have went the check/call route on the flop (and again stating I believe he probably bets a wider range when checked to than he calls, so we don't really give up much value, if any, anyways; if he checks KQ behind, nice play sir).

GbrokenrecordG
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:07 PM   #120
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

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Originally Posted by pocketzeroes View Post
Heavily disagree with the bolded portion. Villain can have a lot of Ax-suited hands, stabs from medium PPs, and hands like AJ and AT. All of these might take stabs at the pot, but would otherwise likely just fold to a bet. Anyway, we want to get value from villain's air (which I guess is really only Ax-suited), and shouldn't be excited about clearing it out.

This is a lot different than when we raise with 77 and the flop comes 2-3-8 rainbow. In that case, it's pretty hard to get value from worse, or to get better to fold, but there are just so many cards that can bring villain into the lead and we don't know which cards they are... In this case (op's hand), however, villain might hit a straight on an 8/9/K/A, but will tend to play very straightforward when we're passive on the flop and there's 4 to a broadway straight, so we don't need to worry so much about getting bluffed when a K or A peels on the turn.
+1

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Old 05-12-2017, 12:30 PM   #121
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

I'll clear it up one last time since most of us have different perceptions of what this "pretty tight pre ABC straight forward players" calling range is preflop is and what his raising range is on the flop. It's not like that player descriptions range is written in stone. So, it's understandable.

Pre he has all pairs 22-AA. J10s/QJs, KQ/KQs, AQ/AQs and AK/AKs... possibly AT/AJ but they're irrelevant as he never raises flop with them anyway.

His raising range on the flop from the worst to best 10J, QJ (both unlikely as I think he would just call with these two) JJ, QQ, AK.
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:44 PM   #122
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

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His raising range on the flop from the worst to best 10J, QJ (both unlikely as I think he would just call with these two) JJ, QQ, AK.
If that's the case, with TJ and JQ not only discounted for a raise, but also discounted pre per suitedness, then it's a pretty clear cut fold.

The only other thing I could say is try to be a sicko here and 3bet then shove blank turns specifically to get him to lay down JJ, if you think he's usually going to 3bet AK pre and almost always going to reraise a flop 3bet with AK, but flat with other hands. And if you think he's capable of folding sets. In a vacuum, never do this, because nobody folds sets (except for the players that do fold sets, of course).
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:48 PM   #123
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
As played, I think we have to call. The bet sizing from a tight player suggests a "please fold, I don't want to go any further" message. can do this with a lot of 2 pair as well as pair + SD combos to fold just yet. A call keeps our range fairly wide. That said, I'm not looking to play for stacks. I'd check the turn no matter what happens and see what the villain does. If he makes a $500 bet, I'd fold absent some other information (like the case T coming).
+1 I got this feeling from him and thinking back now he did look kind of nervous which I forgot to add and could mean different things.
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:52 PM   #124
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

Pocketzeros Id only pull that movie against an ULTRA nit. Against 99% of players that would be reckless af. Like you said.
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:56 PM   #125
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Re: PAHWM: 1010 mp vs button.

Disagree with the "please fold" bit. I mean, being 300BBs effective, I know that I would often 4x the $50 with the nuts, and I know many other good players would do the same. I would especially do this if I've 3bet pre a lot, and villains are going to remove AK from my range - I might even go bigger, like $235.

I guess it's really a spot where you need to know your villain though. If you play with them long enough, they'll usually let you know what their bets and sizings mean.
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