I always think deepness as being a double edged sword. The deeper everyone is, the more IO odds we have *if we're better than them*; if they aren't much worse than us (or worse, if they're better than us), coupled with their positional advantage, actually might make our RIO a lot worse with a hand like this (that makes very few best hands but can make quite a few good second best hands).

We're already at a positional disadvantage; building a big pot OOP may not be the best way to go about things.

Gbutthat'sthewayIlookatthingsG

That makes sense

if you look at people's profit graph, most of their wins come from AA, KK, AK, so they really can't afford to ever fold it.

also, if you count up the number of hands in the pure strategy range from UTG, it's slightly less 5% that is playable, so, theoretically speaking, you need to add some hands to give you a mixed strategy.

if you add suited connectors 67-JT to your UTG opens, your VPIP would still be less than 7%. Most people will not notice the difference, so your percieved range will not really be effected at all from the POV of the other players

it's not easy to win money with these hands. Overall, you should lose a little bit but it's part of the mixed strategy that adds value to your premiums, theoretically anyway.

maybe it's not a big deal at 1/3 but in order to move up or in order to win at higher levels you have to have some variability in your opens and SCs play well post, usually

I'm not really sure why I'm responding to you because your argument makes zero sense but keep folding these hands. It's probably fine for you since you seem to be able to sit at a live table and not play poker

I am late to the party here as well. I am not the pre-flop police per se, but johnny is right here....not deep enough to raise this pre.

I am with the folks who check this flop. Reasons to c-bet are to (1) get better to fold, (2) protect equity or (3) for value. Versus 5 players, you certainly aren't going to satisfy #1 and your hand really isn't a value hand so #3 is out. Yes, you can bet for #2 vs smaller pairs, overcards and draws, but I would argue that the # of players is too high to reasonably expect your bet to get through. And, given that your value range as the PFR on this flop is extremely narrow, you will invite raises on this bet. For those reasons, I think it is a clear check/eval spot.

AP, you bet and got raised. Once that happens it is the easiest fold spot in the world. I have absolutely no idea how you decide this is a spot to shove all in over a raise and a flat. There is very close to zero chance your hand is good and you likely have 3 clean outs when behind.

didn't meant to be rude to GG...it probably doesn't matter if you fold this pre at 1/3 but at some point you reach a point where you are playing vs a table full of people who notice you are not playing anything from UTG and you can't get action on your opens, tho i doubt 1/3 is the place

I've been in a lot of these spots because i never met an SC i didn't like, and it usually doesn't turn out well when we get it in on this flop

...check fold the flop or just check call can be fine

interested in results tho

Why in the world would anyone fold to an UTG open from me? 97s/44/JTo/etc. can all crack my AA, so why would anyone fold that preflop with generous stacks behind? I've *never* had a problem getting action with an EP open, and in fact it is the exact opposite: I get *too much action* (which is worse, imo, and why I limp/reraise).

If you knew what my cards were, would you fold to my preflop raise in position?

GcluelessNLnoobG

I keep asking what "deep enough" means and nobody has said.

Easiest fold even though I'm getting 4.5:1 and am at roughly 3:1?

My thoughts at the time of the raise were:

1. UTG+1 range is 33+, ATs+. I weighted toward pp.

2. UTG+2 range is 33+, Axs, K9s+. I was almost certain he was chasing a flush draw.

3. Neither is playing a low SC, so made straight and straight flush are not out there.

4. I'm getting 4.5:1 to call and with the above ranges, I'm roughly 3:1. Not sure why this is being labeled as the easiest fold spot in the world.

In hindsight, I'm probably checking this flop.

V1 shows pocket pair
V2 shows Ax flush draw

There isn't a fixed rule because there are a bunch of things that play into it.

If just looking at average stacks I would lay it out like this. At < 50BB then don't bother, everything you open should be for value. Between 50BB and 100BB you can throw in a pocket pair you wouldn't normally play 1 time in 5 or so. Between 100BB and 200BB open the suited connectors 1 time in 5 also. If average stacks are > 200BB add in some more weak hands that can flop well.

Other things that play into this: The bigger your opening raise needs to be the less you open light. If villains are aggressive raisers then cut down your light opens. In extreme cases where there is a lot of 3 betting and some light 4 bets you may need to stop entirely. if the table is super passive you can add a couple more in. If your bets get lots of calls preflop then a bit less, if raises often go heads up them a bit more.

If your c-bets are getting folds on the flop then you can do this more, if villains are sticky on the flop then do it less. The more villains will lose when you hit the more you can open light, the less implied odds you have then the less you should open light. These two are somewhat contradictory in nature and you have to balance between how sticky they are and how much they will lose overall.

One of the reasons for opening light is balance and insuring your EP range is not super nitty. This means playing unknowns it's less important. If you are playing the same opponents in a weekly game it's a bigger concern.

I'm still comfortable with my open in this hand.

If I knew what your cards were I might call upwards of 100% of your opens as long as you didn't know mine

Sorry friend, you are not making sense in this thread but OP is fine with his open and so am I and in general pre flop deep stacked isn't that important. I don't like folding suites connectors 200bbs deep but it doesn't matter. Its so close to a break even hand that it will not effect your win rate much by folding. It's truly irrelevant until you fold 100%.

I think bet/jam.is fine on this texture even tho this is the not worst SDV we can have. It's the nut bottom of our shove range but we have big pairs here and top sets too and as OP described, we are the only ones in the hand with a possible straight