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Old 10-20-2016, 11:15 AM   #51
gobbledygeek
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Just curious, what is your guys' checking range on this flop? Do you not have any strong hands or strong draws in it? E.g. AQ with Q hearts, KQhh.
My checking range would consist of pretty much WA/WB hands (no better hand is folding, very unlikely a worse hand is going to call), so stuff like KK/QQ (and perhaps JJ although there you could argue for a bet for protection against overs), plus "weakish" TP hands that I don't really want to stack off here with (such as AJ fearing I could be up against AK/AQ/AT).

Doubt I'm checking back AA, and I'm also not checking back big draws (such as flush draw + gutshot) as I'm pretty happy getting stacks in on flop + FE with those. Also not checking back air; if I'm going to play 9 high like this preflop then I'm damn well going to rep the A on the flop.

GimoG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 10-20-2016 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 10-20-2016, 11:21 AM   #52
gobbledygeek
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

On the turn, I'm of two minds.

On one hand, the pot is fricken huge and I don't really like ****ing around in these spots. Just getting in the money while we are good / dragging a big pot might be better than trying to eke out a little more by some ~FPS. So I'd simply PSB it and hope he has a hand that he can't fold (such as A + flush draw or better or he decides to get frisky or whatever) to setup an easy river shove.

On the other hand, because this guy can get frisky, another option would be to bet weak and hope he plays back, so something like a weak $100 trying to induce. The problem with this idea is that it can often blow up in our face, and all we end up doing is giving terrific odds to call and then a decent percentage of the time we face a horrible river card and decision. Also, inducing for huge stacks at this level is *really* hard.

So I lean towards the first option and just PSB it.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 10-20-2016, 12:28 PM   #53
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

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Originally Posted by Maskk View Post
Yes, but you discount just how much of his range misses this, paired w that he will likely fold any single pair hand <AJ--of which there are a lot.
Enough that I think it has >30% FE on the flop. Vs many villains it's greater than 50.

Basically he has to have what we are repping to continue, and bc this is live, his range contains ALOT more than that.


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No, it does not miss him. His 3-bet calling range from UTG + 1 is something like 88-QQ, A9s+, AJo+, KJs+. A9s/AJo probably discounted somewhat since those are a bit loose to call, but this board absolutely smashes his range. We shouldn't have anywhere near 30% or 50% fold equity here.

Why would anyone fold a single paired hand here like AJ...? A lot of people arent coming to the casino to fold top pair.
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Old 10-20-2016, 12:34 PM   #54
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

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Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
You realise I'm aware that checking turn with a medium flush is not without risks right?

Yes, if a 4th flush card comes on river it's bad but it isn't happening everytime. Against a perceptive opponents it can be profitable to take deceptive lines on wet boards. Risk vs reward. Either it I'd worth it or if isn't. I'd make the judgment in game. You want a hard and fast rule of how to play this hand? Well tough luck, there is no set way. It all depends on V's tendencies.

You also contradict yourself, you want to check some mid strength and strong hands on a wet flop but you don't ever want to check a strong hand on a wet turn. Checking flop or turn with any type of han may be the best play depending on the villain.
So what do you do when our opponent donks river? Raising is so obvious you have the flush, and you probably don't get called by worse ever unless he's a complete station. Check turn then raising river with a flush is not deceptive at all. Like what kind of bluff can you even have? OP didn't give a ton of V's tendencies, so this hand is just treated as a standard one.

When did I say I don't want to check a strong hand on the turn? You're just putting words in my mouth.

The 9 high flush here is a clear cut value bet especially against the LLSNL population that calls too much and folds too little, and is too vulnerable on many rivers. When the board pairs, he might think we have a full house and fold some Aces/pairs that had a heart redraw on the turn, etc. Or KQs with a heart and decide not to bluff river against our strong range. Obv when the heart hits, it kills our hand too. That's like 40% of the deck. His continuing range on this flop is strong, so there's no reason to slow down at all.
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Old 10-20-2016, 01:12 PM   #55
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Minatorr I'm not saying to check the turn vs this villain. I'm saying bet the turn.

I'm just talking about a hypothetical scenario where we are facing a perceptive villain who will put us on a flush on the turn and fold to our value bet. That conversation only came about because you were quizzing me about my plan to bet the flop. You suggested my bet bet bet line wouldn't work against a perceptive villain. I explained I'm prepared to take a risky deceptive line to eek out a little more profit vs a villain hell bent on folding most of his range to a turn bet on a 3flush.

If such a player donks river and we read it as a blocking bet then I raise whatever I think gets the most out of him if he donks river and he could be blocking or could be inducing with the nuts then I call and yes, that's annoying.

Yes there are rivers that kill our action, yes this super foldy opponent is folding if the board pairs, if a straight card comes or if a 4th flush card comes. Yeah, he's basically going to be impossible to get value from a lot of the time. Still, some proportion of the 60% of the boring rivers V doesn't donk and we get a shot to Cbet him once. That's as much as you'll get out of some fody players. Again, not my fault!

Now I don't think we should keep discussing this hypothetical scenario. It's distracting from the main pahwm by being a step ahead of the action and is vs a different villain. Heck, I'm confused already!
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Old 10-20-2016, 01:16 PM   #56
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

GG I don't hate pot bet on turn but I think it is a lot more scary than 1/2-2/3 so maybe doesn't get called as often.

I agree going really small won't induce much. If anything IP it looks like you're super desperate for value and almost more likely to induce caution than spazz!
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Old 10-20-2016, 04:58 PM   #57
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

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Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
GG I don't hate pot bet on turn but I think it is a lot more scary than 1/2-2/3 so maybe doesn't get called as often.
This b/c we want value from A-x. However, hero can only do this if he is planning to fold if a hits the river and villain bets big.

I think we can make that fold despite V's description: 1) hero's turn bet looks strong indicating possible flush, 2) any perceived flush by hero on river should involve high cards if not the nuts, and 3) V is described as "trying to outplay" opponents not as a total psychopath.

If we aren't willing to make that fold on the river, then PSB. V calling with a single high would be a mistake even assuming he gets the rest of our stack.
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Old 10-20-2016, 05:19 PM   #58
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
No, it does not miss him. His 3-bet calling range from UTG + 1 is something like 88-QQ, A9s+, AJo+, KJs+. A9s/AJo probably discounted somewhat since those are a bit loose to call, but this board absolutely smashes his range. We shouldn't have anywhere near 30% or 50% fold equity here.

Why would anyone fold a single paired hand here like AJ...? A lot of people arent coming to the casino to fold top pair.

I said <AJ (so A7 and crap like that). You cannot underestimate the power of MUBS if the hero can sell a good story with cards + reverse live tells. I can get all variety of top pairs to fold in LoLLivePokerz with a good reverse tell and a raise or a barrel.


This is why I think I can get 30%+ FE with a flop bet:
My range for them is something like: 22-AA (Yes KK and AA are SQUARELY in a standard range here), ATo+, A9s+, QJ/KJ/KQ suited and probably off, + 15% overlay of rando SCs/S1cs/Rando****tyAces and other **** if the villain was bored, card dead, or has a fave hand.
Hero's 79s is very much in range for a raise/call in LoLivePokerz, even from seeming TAGs. A live TAG is usually playing a bit over 20ish% of hands in a ring game--fundamentally thats not very tight.
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Old 10-20-2016, 07:00 PM   #59
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Your ranges are way off. No one is opening 25%+ hands from UTG + 1 or calling anywhere near that much vs a 3-bet unless they are a whale.

I dont know what games you play in, but KK-AA is not even close to standard for UTG + 1's 3-bet calling range. Neither is the range you assinged him.
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Old 10-20-2016, 07:06 PM   #60
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Your ranges are way off. No one is opening 25%+ hands from UTG + 1 or calling anywhere near that much vs a 3-bet unless they are a whale


Cut my range by 5% for EP on the rando crap when bored. But 20% range EP opens does not for sure mean a whale. A shark in a soft game could be, as well. Most players are spots in LLSNL or you need to both improve your game and work on changing tables.





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Old 10-20-2016, 08:54 PM   #61
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

There is a zero % chance you can profit from A5s UTG + 1 unless your entire table has whales

Last edited by Minatorr; 10-20-2016 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 10-20-2016, 09:29 PM   #62
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

More action!

Hero has been at table for a little under an hour following a table change. Hero noticed mucho action at table while playing next door.

V1 ($650) UTG+1 - MAWG/haggard looking competitive rec/reg. more aggro than most. likes to take odd lines and try to outplay people. Just sat down at table.

V2 ($1K+) UTG+2 - late 20s, early 30s WG. tighter than most. former dealer, seemingly solid.

Hero ($700) MP - 30s WG, taggy, haven't gotten out of line. Did double barrel V1 at previous table. He turn raised and I folded. Came to table with $350 and doubled up calling a flop all in raise vs my top 2 pair.

OTTH

fold, V1 raises to 12, V2 calls, hero looks down at 79

There is a $1K plus stack left to act on my direct left and one in the blinds.

Hero 3-bets to $48. folds to V1 (UTG+1) who calls, utg+2 folds.

Flop ($110ish) A108x

V1 checks. Should be noted he has been known to check-raise.

Hero bets $80, stares at flop/pot (usual). V1 calls in a normal amount of time.

Turn ($270) 5

Not the true gin card a 6x would have been, but pretty !

V1 checks, Hero bets $200, V1 verbally announces all in and shoves rest of his chips in middle. It's around $312 more.

Hero????
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Old 10-20-2016, 10:56 PM   #63
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Call. I spent some time playing around with ranges and I don't think he has many flush combos to start with. Remove all the A combos, remove T/9, we get KQ/KJ/QJ for 3 combos.

This villain as described tries to outplay people and takes odd lines. Can that guy call with AA and then flat top set and then x/r? Or AxKh? Or 88/TT/ATss? Because if you add in AA or AxKh or TT or 88, it's a snap call.

Pretty much unless this guy only x/r with flushes, we have to call and that doesn't match the villain description given.
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Old 10-20-2016, 11:02 PM   #64
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Snap call. You've gone this far with this hand. V could have two pair, set, big ace, naked K heart. Sometimes you get a cooler, that is the risk you take playing 79hh
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Old 10-21-2016, 02:24 AM   #65
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
There is a zero % chance you can profit from A5s UTG + 1 unless your entire table has whales


Internet players win tactically and maximize every seat working w small edges.

Live players win strategically.

Further, plenty of live players aren't anywhere near positionally sensitive enough.

I'm not a fan of ****ty aces, and tend to be tight in EP, but ******ed in MP and LP.... that said, rando suited aces are good in all positions at a table that limps multiway 50+% of the time (when I limp it in EP and everywhere else). It's a common day game condition.


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Old 10-21-2016, 02:27 AM   #66
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicname View Post
More action!



Hero has been at table for a little under an hour following a table change. Hero noticed mucho action at table while playing next door.



V1 ($650) UTG+1 - MAWG/haggard looking competitive rec/reg. more aggro than most. likes to take odd lines and try to outplay people. Just sat down at table.



V2 ($1K+) UTG+2 - late 20s, early 30s WG. tighter than most. former dealer, seemingly solid.



Hero ($700) MP - 30s WG, taggy, haven't gotten out of line. Did double barrel V1 at previous table. He turn raised and I folded. Came to table with $350 and doubled up calling a flop all in raise vs my top 2 pair.



OTTH



fold, V1 raises to 12, V2 calls, hero looks down at 79



There is a $1K plus stack left to act on my direct left and one in the blinds.



Hero 3-bets to $48. folds to V1 (UTG+1) who calls, utg+2 folds.



Flop ($110ish) A108x



V1 checks. Should be noted he has been known to check-raise.



Hero bets $80, stares at flop/pot (usual). V1 calls in a normal amount of time.



Turn ($270) 5



Not the true gin card a 6x would have been, but pretty !



V1 checks, Hero bets $200, V1 verbally announces all in and shoves rest of his chips in middle. It's around $312 more.



Hero????


Snap call. If he's got a bigger flush, **** happens.
Hope he had the set or AK w the K redraw for your sake.




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Old 10-21-2016, 05:34 AM   #67
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Yes. River is pretty trivial. I thought the hand played pretty standard following my decision to 3-bet pre. Interesting that it generated a decent amount of discussion.
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Old 10-21-2016, 05:44 AM   #68
Ragequit99
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

I call turn allin. Vs this opponent flush over flush is a cooler IMO and can't be avoided.
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Old 10-21-2016, 06:28 AM   #69
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
There is a zero % chance you can profit from A5s UTG + 1 unless your entire table has whales
I probably open limp A5ss about 20% of the time and the reason is that the table is currently so incredibly passive that we are likely to see a 6+ way limped family pot. When everyone is playing bingo with ATC, then paying 1bb to draw to the nut flush, top part of two pair and trips top kicker is how you get on the right end of 'coolers' that aren't coolers.
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Old 10-21-2016, 09:44 AM   #70
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

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Originally Posted by WereBeer View Post
I probably open limp A5ss about 20% of the time and the reason is that the table is currently so incredibly passive that we are likely to see a 6+ way limped family pot. When everyone is playing bingo with ATC, then paying 1bb to draw to the nut flush, top part of two pair and trips top kicker is how you get on the right end of 'coolers' that aren't coolers.


+1

Also there's the all too common situation of 2 pair vs some OMC w AK or AQ and you can take 50+BB as he gets saucy/sticky postflop, despite the MWay limpfest.


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Old 10-21-2016, 12:10 PM   #71
gobbledygeek
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

If we're going to create an SPR 5.5 pot preflop and then make a flush postflop, we don't fold. Snap call (and actually feeling pretty good about it against this guy as he can clearly have really good hands that we still beat as well as be trying to outplay us with something we are crushing).

Gmadeourbed,lieinit,imoG
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:41 PM   #72
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

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Yes. River is pretty trivial. I thought the hand played pretty standard following my decision to 3-bet pre. Interesting that it generated a decent amount of discussion.
What river? Looks like a CRAI on the turn.

Which is almost never, ever a move, you're just basically at the near-top of your range, and if you lost, he has the top of your range.

And GG (the nit) and I (the donkastation) are agreeing on a hand postflop!

The pre and flop has some interesting strategic connotations. If you're already behind, my seemingly crappy arguments are strengthened (b/c the hands that you lose two are 2 unpaired cards below an A).
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:47 PM   #73
Minatorr
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

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Originally Posted by Maskk View Post
Internet players win tactically and maximize every seat working w small edges.

Live players win strategically.

Further, plenty of live players aren't anywhere near positionally sensitive enough.

I'm not a fan of ****ty aces, and tend to be tight in EP, but ******ed in MP and LP.... that said, rando suited aces are good in all positions at a table that limps multiway 50+% of the time (when I limp it in EP and everywhere else). It's a common day game condition.


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I meant raising*.

Lol at live players winning strategically. We use strategy online too, probably way moreso than live.
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:52 PM   #74
Minatorr
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBeer View Post
I probably open limp A5ss about 20% of the time and the reason is that the table is currently so incredibly passive that we are likely to see a 6+ way limped family pot. When everyone is playing bingo with ATC, then paying 1bb to draw to the nut flush, top part of two pair and trips top kicker is how you get on the right end of 'coolers' that aren't coolers.
Forgot to mention raising in my post. Above poster was saying it's possible to have a profitable 25% CO open from UTG + 1 or somerhing like that.
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Old 10-21-2016, 04:12 PM   #75
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

I assume what Maskk is saying is that live is soft and there are many different types of bad player so live players find it easier to win without pushing every tactical edge and have more room for maneuver strategically.

Because online is way more competitive the regulars are all playing a much more similar strategy so the difference between the winners and losers comes down to a excution. Whoever makes the most mistakes while attempting to execute thel strategy loses.

Live many players are ONLY making mistakes and you have a tremendous number of options for how you manipulate the table so that your opponents make the biggest most frequent mistakes in the pots you're in before any other competent players manage to get at their stacks.
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