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Old 10-18-2016, 04:45 PM   #1
nicname
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PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Hero has been at table for a little under an hour following a table change. Hero noticed mucho action at table while playing next door.

V1 ($650) UTG+1 - MAWG/haggard looking competitive rec/reg. more aggro than most. likes to take odd lines and try to outplay people. Just sat down at table.

V2 ($1K+) UTG+2 - late 20s, early 30s WG. tighter than most. former dealer, seemingly solid.

Hero ($700) MP - 30s WG, taggy, haven't gotten out of line. Did double barrel V1 at previous table. He turn raised and I folded. Came to table with $350 and doubled up calling a flop all in raise vs my top 2 pair.

OTTH

fold, V1 raises to 12, V2 calls, hero looks down at 79

There is a $1K plus stack left to act on my direct left and one in the blinds.

Wat do?
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Old 10-18-2016, 05:03 PM   #2
gobbledygeek
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

I'd fold in MP. Too good a chance someone else reraises behind us at this action table, plus too good a chance we'll be OOP to multiple opponents postflop (assuming a $12 raise at a 1/3 NL deep action table is going very multiway like always). Also too early position to be making a move. Also a hand that has decent RIO deep (where we really need position to help counteract that). ETA: Also, the two players involved in the hand so far don't exactly seem like huge fish that we absolutely need to be attempting to get into a hand with.

GPAHWMkilljoyG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 10-18-2016 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 10-18-2016, 05:09 PM   #3
Railbird_1211
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I'd fold in MP. Too good a chance someone else reraises behind us at this action table, plus too good a chance we'll be OOP to multiple opponents postflop (assuming a $12 raise at a 1/3 NL deep action table is going very multiway like always). Also too early position to be making a move. Also a hand that has decent RIO deep (where we really need position to help counteract that).

GPAHWMkilljoyG
That about sums it up. Although in person I find myself stupidly calling here.
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Old 10-18-2016, 06:06 PM   #4
Garick
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

79s is one of my favorite speculative hands, but I'll usually fold it MP. Get to CO and I can get behind a call most of the time, and the occasional 3-bet. In MP though, I'm afraid I'm with GG.
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Old 10-18-2016, 06:22 PM   #5
Ragequit99
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

I'd probably fold too and I dont like calling for reasons given above. However, I think an argument can be made for a squeeze here, even if nit-me doesn't do it in game

V1 is a little more aggro than most so his EP open range may contain stuff that others would limp (small pairs, AXs etc). With that bit wider range he may overfold to a convincing 3bet.

V2 is tight and solid so his call eliminates his 3betting range (QQ+ AK) and so he should fold to the 3bet.

97s may not have blockers to QQ+ AK but it doesn't have bad RIO and can flop equity to bluff with. Also we already agreed (well, GG, G and me did) we don't want to call it so it is one of best folding hands, ideal for a light 3bet.

I'd 3bet big enough to prevent set mining being profitable as long as my value 3bets have been that big recently. I'd raise/fold to $80ish.
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Old 10-18-2016, 06:36 PM   #6
jc315
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

On the forum I say fold. In person, this deep at an action table, I probably also can't help but to call and see a flop.

I don't like a 3-bet at all. I take the speculative hand and see a flop multi-way for $12 and try to flop big/play some post-flop poker.
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Old 10-18-2016, 06:55 PM   #7
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

If you call you'll likely trigger an avalanche of calls behind you and possibly a big raise. Massively multiway to the flop in MP with 97s you can't play any poker and you actually do suffer RIO because you'll frequently be up against bigger flush draws and/or bigger straight draws. Unless you make the nuts you're going to be on here asking about what to do with a small flush or straight when a passive player wants to get it in for 220BB
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Old 10-18-2016, 08:52 PM   #8
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Op did you look left?
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Old 10-19-2016, 12:44 AM   #9
nicname
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

here we go

Hero has been at table for a little under an hour following a table change. Hero noticed mucho action at table while playing next door.

V1 ($650) UTG+1 - MAWG/haggard looking competitive rec/reg. more aggro than most. likes to take odd lines and try to outplay people. Just sat down at table.

V2 ($1K+) UTG+2 - late 20s, early 30s WG. tighter than most. former dealer, seemingly solid.

Hero ($700) MP - 30s WG, taggy, haven't gotten out of line. Did double barrel V1 at previous table. He turn raised and I folded. Came to table with $350 and doubled up calling a flop all in raise vs my top 2 pair.

OTTH

fold, V1 raises to 12, V2 calls, hero looks down at 79

There is a $1K plus stack left to act on my direct left and one in the blinds.

Hero 3-bets to $48. folds to V1 (UTG+1) who calls, utg+2 folds.

Flop ($110ish) A108x

V1 checks. Should be noted he has been known to check-raise.

Hero?
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Old 10-19-2016, 12:58 AM   #10
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Delay c-bet.
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Old 10-19-2016, 03:48 AM   #11
Ragequit99
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

You are 50:50 vs AK AQ KK QQ JJ. You are well behind bigger straight/flush draws like KQhh KJHH QJhh.

I would cbet 65 in an attempt to get V to fold his equity with KK-JJ. With FD and OESD and lots of dead money we can shove over a raise.

If we check back flop and miss turn our odds of drawing to a hand drop significantly and V knows we could be drawing. With his aggression he will likely bet AX big on the turn and that'll be awkward for our hand. If he checks turn with KK-JJ and we bet he will be more likely to call us down vs a our capped range than if we bet flop and turn (uncapped).
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Old 10-19-2016, 04:28 AM   #12
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

He still has KQhh/1010/discounted 88/A10s/QJhh that makes our equity vs his continuing range plummet, especially vs a GII range. Against a stack off range 220+bb deep, 97hh has awful equity. I dont really expect much fold equity on this flop against UTG + 1's 3-bet calling range anyway. IP I'd check OOP probably barrel.

If Villain were competent, he'd actually think we want to get to SD with a weak/medium ace/JJ-KK. 3-bettor is expected to bet all his air/gutshots/draws/value on this board. So he can't "know" we're drawing. Most likely would put us on JJ-KK.
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Old 10-19-2016, 05:22 AM   #13
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

True, V may read our flop check as KK-JJ but a lot of low stakes regs aren't very aggressive with draws other than the nfd and tend to bet to "find out where they're at" with weak top pair.

So V can think we're drawing or trying to pot control pairs below Aces. That is going to cause him a dilemma with his AX+. He want value from KK-JJ but also wants to make draws pay too much. Since a lot of hero's draws are FD+Gutshot V needs to bet quite big with AX vs the draws but wants to go 1/2 pot or less vs the KK-JJ.

Given low stakes players' morbid fear of draws I think V will go big if he bets unless I have a read he doesn't do this. That's not great for our hand on the turn.

We don't have to fold out his KK-JJ on flop, a double barrel will get rid of them. A bet flop, bet turn line is a bit more expensive than check flop/call pot bet on turn but with the fold equity I think bet flop/bet turn is a better line for realising our equity. It also disguises our hand better if we make it and sets us up for a big value bet on the river.

I agree gii on the flop isn't fantastic but apart from the bigger combo draws I don't believe we're in bad shape against V's gii range on the flop. We're not that afraid of sets, even less so 2pair and AK. I cold be wrong though. I don't have a PC to run equity calculations, would you please do so clcs for allin equity for some reasonable villain ranges on thus flop?
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Old 10-19-2016, 05:50 AM   #14
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

I fold pre but prefer the 3! to a call.

AP I think we have to bet. We have a monster draw but our equity drops a lot if we miss the turn.

EDIT

We're nearly 50/50 against AK/AT/TT/88 so we can jam over raises. We're 60/40 vs. exactly TT/88.
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Old 10-19-2016, 08:59 AM   #15
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PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Give it more time before posting the next street. Like 2 days to discuss.


As one of our forums pre-eminent lose tards, I lurrrrv 79ss. That said vs a raise, it's a fold here. If it had limped to you, I'd limp along and call behind.

I like the 3ball--I think it's better then an open call here--for reasons already enumerated itt, 79s is not an ideal holding for a bloated MWay massacre (as opposed to any pp). That said, I often f up and call behind out of boredom. 3! Is better.

Now that we're otf, time to BOMB. Why? 1) we basically flopped Deez Nutz 2) the A is a great bombing cards, a 3bet signals AK and AQ. So lots of hands (pp) call/fold. Hell some OMCs will fold a A+Crap-sooooted here when they hit the A, despite calling a 3ball pre w A+Crap, they've just been kicked in the balls too often w that hand and still can't learn to fold pre. I think a bet here wins 30-75% of the time, V depending.


So, Bombs Away!


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Last edited by Maskk; 10-19-2016 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 10-19-2016, 10:51 AM   #16
Pony_law
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

I lean toward a bet on the flop, obviously getting check raised is sub optimal but you have enough equity to stand up to resistance if you receive any and if you improve on the turn the pot's bigger and you can potentially extract more value.
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Old 10-19-2016, 10:59 AM   #17
pologuy64
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Pre-flop can either be a call or fold...

thats a good flop. Lets start with a bet
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Old 10-19-2016, 11:27 AM   #18
Keaton
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

We 3bet light and essentially flopped gin. I don't see how we can possibly check here. We have a monster hand that could rapidly lose equity as more cards come. Are we really going to check out of fear from being check-raised?

I assume the OP bet and was check-raised...
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Old 10-19-2016, 11:42 AM   #19
gobbledygeek
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

On the flop, against this guy I'd probably attempt to make him spazz. So I'd bet smallish (say $50 - $60) which this guy might pick up as quite weak on this drawy board and hopefully he'll play back at us with a check/raise, where I'd then shippitty-doo-dah.

If he just calls, I'm guessing my plan would be to simply take my free card on the turn if I whiff.

GimoG
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Old 10-19-2016, 12:33 PM   #20
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

I'd bet $75 on the flop. If he check-raises, I shove and expect a ton of fold equity. If he calls, I'm firing a second barrel on virtually all turn cards.

The only combos in his range that I'm really worried about are KQhh, KJhh, 1010, and 88. That's... not a lot of combos. Maybe we give him the three combos of A10s as well. Still not a lot of combos, and we have a ton of outs against two pair here.
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Old 10-19-2016, 03:03 PM   #21
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Think his 3-bet calling range here is too strong to warrant a semi-bluff. From UTG + 1 it's something like QQ-88, ATs+, KQs, AQo+. The only hands he folds are 99/JJ/QQ/KQs and that's if we double barrel. That's only 16 out of about 68 total combos, and he's not folding anything but 99 to a flop c-bet. He just hits this board too hard.

And I think if we turn or river the flush/straight, we get paid off more since a good player expects us to bet our bluffs/draws OTF. It makes our range more deceptive. We cap rep the lone Ah if turn is a heart and we start raising river.

Last edited by Minatorr; 10-19-2016 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 10-19-2016, 03:07 PM   #22
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
True, V may read our flop check as KK-JJ but a lot of low stakes regs aren't very aggressive with draws other than the nfd and tend to bet to "find out where they're at" with weak top pair.

So V can think we're drawing or trying to pot control pairs below Aces. That is going to cause him a dilemma with his AX+. He want value from KK-JJ but also wants to make draws pay too much. Since a lot of hero's draws are FD+Gutshot V needs to bet quite big with AX vs the draws but wants to go 1/2 pot or less vs the KK-JJ.

Given low stakes players' morbid fear of draws I think V will go big if he bets unless I have a read he doesn't do this. That's not great for our hand on the turn.

We don't have to fold out his KK-JJ on flop, a double barrel will get rid of them. A bet flop, bet turn line is a bit more expensive than check flop/call pot bet on turn but with the fold equity I think bet flop/bet turn is a better line for realising our equity. It also disguises our hand better if we make it and sets us up for a big value bet on the river.

I agree gii on the flop isn't fantastic but apart from the bigger combo draws I don't believe we're in bad shape against V's gii range on the flop. We're not that afraid of sets, even less so 2pair and AK. I cold be wrong though. I don't have a PC to run equity calculations, would you please do so clcs for allin equity for some reasonable villain ranges on thus flop?
You can't just assume what our opponent does OTT. Im pretty sure not a ton of players arent just potting turn since our range looks weak. Also, a good % of the time we hit our draw anyway.

Vs stack-off range of TT/88/ATs/KQhh, we are 41/59. Jamming over a raise here is not +EV like everyone is saying it is. I expect most opponents to have a narrow raising range here deep OOP and are never raise folding.

Our hand is actually more disguised if we check. Like I said, it's expected and usually standard to stab almost all draws/air/gutshots on this flop as 3-bettor. So if the flush comes and you're still barreling off, it's pretty obvious you have the flush.

Last edited by Minatorr; 10-19-2016 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 10-19-2016, 03:10 PM   #23
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

I mean, a check isn't bad. I'd say betting is definitely +EV, but overall for range, deception, and pot control I'd just check.
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Old 10-19-2016, 03:13 PM   #24
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Think his 3-bet calling range here is too strong to warrant a demi-bluff. Fron UTG + 1 it's something like QQ-88, ATs+, KQs, AQo+. The only hands he folds are 99/JJ/QQ/KQs and rhat's if we double barrel. That's only 16 out of about 68 total combos, and he's not folding anything but 99 to a flop c-bet. He just hits this board too hard.

And I think if we turn or river the flush/straight, we get paid off more since a good player expects us to bet our bluffs/draws OTF. It makes our range more deceptive. We cap rep the lone Ah if turn is a heart and we start raising river.
You and I must play in very different games... You think we'll need to fire two barrels to get villain to fold KQcc oop?

Players tend to treat 3-bet pots in a straightforward manner. Hero hasn't been iso-three betting, so hero's range looks very strong. I expect 99/JJ/QQ to fold to a flop bet, assuming that hero usually has AK/AA/KK and not wanting to run a suicide bluff against a strong made hand out of position.
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Old 10-19-2016, 03:16 PM   #25
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Re: PAHWM: 1/3 nl deepish

I play 100NLz. I also played 200NLz, but im not comfortable with 25BI. Yes, the games are very different. Range deception becomes pretty important, and people are floating you pretty liberally.

If the read is that he folds 99/JJ/QQ/KQs to one flop bet this deep, then c-bet away.
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