Setting: in a casino on a 9 handed 1/3 table ($100-$500 BI), middle afternoon, Friday before holiday weekend. room opened 2/5 table about an hour ago, so most of the 2/5 players cleared out quickly (/scoff at slumming it at 1/3). standard open on the table has been $15-$18.



Reads:

V1: UTG, $425, middle age black guy. he will raise with good hands, or what he thinks are good hands. not afraid to GII pre with less than stellar hands if that action happens. he's in the game for probably 600-800, complaining that he's "running bad", but just doubled up. post flop i've seen him donk big (> psb) with hands that he perceives as good. several times he's done this and ended up not showing at showdown with losing hands. so he definitely overvalues hands. i consider him the A+ mark at the table.



V2: CO, $300, middle aged white guy. tight in raised pots, very fit or fold post.



V3: BTN, covers, late 20s/early 30s possibly hispanic or white guy, idk, apparent grinder. has 3! a few times but hasnt gotten to showdown though. hasn't shown up with anything ridiculous, so he could just be getting cards when 3!. but he has the same typical leaks of 1/3 players, plays too many pots, not always aggressive. about 5 hands earlier he 3! my $18 open and i folded



V4: SB, $500, late 20s/early 30s white guy, apparent grinder. just sat down, so no real info on him. appears to be waiting for 2/5.



V5: BB, covers, 20s asian guy. very high vpip. not raising a ton pre. it appears his way to make moves is to try to steal pots either when no one shows interest or right off the bat to take it down. his bets are usually small though (~ 1/3psb). he will do this with hands though, but usually not top teir hands.



Hero: HJ, $600. mid 30s white guy with beard. if anyones paying attention (doubtful except maybe V3/V5), i havent been playing too much. pretty card dead getting mostly offsuit 8 gappers. i'm in for $600 and this is going to be my last hand regardless of outcome (no one knows that) due to having to pick up the kiddos from daycare.



OTTH



V1 limps

Folds to Hero in the HJ with $600, who looks down KQ.

Hero raises to $25



- this is a pure iso of V1. i feel like if any K or Q high flop that he hits, i stack him unless he gets lucky. any A high flop, he will donk if he has it, i can cbet good boards otherwise and in general i can play good poker postflop, in position



- if i'm 3! by anyone, i am like 99.99% just dropping this hand and calling it a day



what was that saying about best-laid plans?



V2 folds

V3 calls

V4 calls

V5 calls

V1 calls



Flop ($125 less $7, so $118): KT3



V4 checks

V5 bets $35

V1 calls



pot is now $188

Hero thinks for a few seconds and raises to $100

- As I said earlier, I feel like I have the nut 1 pair hand here pretty much always.

- if i'm 2! by anyone, i am 100% done this hand and calling it a day

- I feel like V5 has been donking small enough times that it should have little respect.

- additionally my main goal was to again, ISO V1. My read was that he's gonna call this bet and continue with weaker hands.



what was that saying about best-laid plans?

V3 thinks for a few seconds and calls
V4 folds
V5 calls
V1 calls



Turn ($518): KT3 [7]

V5 quickly checks
V1 thinks for a few seconds and bets $150



Hero?

From the looks of things, V1 has a lol $150 left in what is now a $668 pot (i.e. feeling a little committed against him?), and we have $475 left against other 2 villains (a big amount in terms of $$$, but still only a 70% PSB left at this point).

I probably go back in time and limp preflop.

I pretty much consider these spots mistakes, mostly because I have *zero* clue how to move forward now and mostly because I'm in the biggest pot I've played this year multiway way for the biggest stacks I've played for this year (I'm actually not sure I've ever put in 200bb stacks in upwards of 3500 hours other than the one time it happened preflop in an AA vs AA situation) and I have the stone cold monster known as TP2Knodraw. Obviously preflop was unexpected, but I'm guessing we would have been better off calling the turn than ending up in this mess.

Ship and live with results? Call and give the odds to draws to suckout on the biggest pot I'll play this year, keeping in mind that if anyone else calls we'll have a lol 1/3 PSB left for the river? Minraise to target V1's stack and fold to anyone else having put in 3/4 of our stack? Possibly fold the best hand in the biggest pot we'll play this year?

GyikesG

Turn is mostly a brick. It gives KX a bunch more outs as well as hands like Q9 and J9 that should not be in here at this point but just might cuz live poker.

The only villain I am really worried about is V3 as he took our flop raise to the face, is an apparent grinder and covers us. I guess I will soul read him for the lone QJ combo. I wouldn't be surprised at all if V1 has exactly KJ that picked up additional equity on the turn.

Time to board the variance train and jam it in there. NH.

C'est la vie.

Everything we do sucks balls (imo), kinda like earlier streets, except now everything is magnified by a factor of 10x thanks to earlier streets building a bigger pot.

Course, whatever, I guess we're playing against idiots who are all making worse mistakes than we are and all have TP3K / draw and we should just ship it in and win 500bbs like its standard.

Gwhichisprobablybestifthisisthespotwegotourselvesi n,Iguess?G

Note that we have Q♠️

^ Yes just the J9ss combo but doesn't affect my soul read

Lulz... Welp... can't fold now because we're pot committed.

$668 in the pot, and its $150 to call. But we haz just $485 before the call. Might as well just punt off your stack now so at least the draw monkeys will have to stack off either way.

LMFAO when V1 turns over 33.

GG wants to go back in time and limp.

If going back in time to correct poor decisions, I'm gonna need some time to get my priorities in order.

my read was such that if V1 had 2P+, he would have raised V5s donk flop bet. had he wanted to get fancy and just flat 2P+ OTF, he would have definitely raised my flop raise after 2 callers. to be more blunt, i expected V1 to have 2P+ basically 0% of the time.

if it was heads up or 3 ways I would raise his donk bet otf but raising it 5 ways is over playing the hand imo. If someone flats then we're left with a bloated pot with a one pair hand, not even top kicker.

I think we're behind ott, he's likely not betting with hands we beat, and is probably checking a FD after the donk bettor checked. It's a small bet compared to the pot but he's probably not thinking about the pot size. People play more straight up when it's multi way (also rec people do flat AK pre).

Raise enough to put V1 all in and pray V5 folds. I think V1 has most likely a pair and a flush draw.

So dirty. You gotta learn to turn better, Johnny.

Anyways, V3's kinda hard to range here. I'd say anything (2p+) but a draw would raise the flop, but you also mention he can be passive at times... though again, I just can't picture someone who grinds missing the obvious shove. SB likely flatted with his whole range most of it, as he bets small to test flops with some connection but uses larger sizing with good hands. V1's doing what we want him to do so I think BTN is the biggest threat here.

Since I'm ranging V3 to draws, I'd advocate simply shoving & hoping the bottom of our range with this line is fairing sort of well. I could be trusting the reads too much though. As Lapidator pretentiously pointed out... pots played this way usually aren't awarded to TPGK. Anyways, I like this PAHWM but at this point I think I have more to learn than to contribute.

Hard to put V3 or V5 on a hand that beats you. Both look like draws. V3 is a decent grinder so there is no way he flats flop w/ two pair plus; V5 could have a weak pair or draw (he supposedly over-bets pot when he has a "good" hand). Considering V1 does not re-raise on the flop, it's hard to put him on anything solid, either. Maybe the turn gave him a flush draw to go with his weak K or similar?

I think shoving should get V3 and V5 to give it up, which is good, and V1 to call with worse.

I don't think this is a terrible turn. Sure, it's not a red 2, but there are only a couple of them in the deck. I think this probably ranks as a better than average turn. Outside of BDFDs and specifically 98cc, it really shouldn't give equity to anything. I would think it's pretty hard for 77, K7, T7 or 73 to get to the turn considering pre/flop action.

Flop raise is spew (especially for such a small size)
Folding turn now

Nobody is thrilled with any option on the flop, however once we get to the turn I would consider the following.
Almost all LLSNL players, especially in bigger pots, when they flop 2 pair+ and the flop is wet like this one and includes a flush draw tend to want to pile money in on the flop. V5 led the flop and saw our raise flatted by the button and V5 chose not to 3b, V1 choose to call the initial $35 and then also flat the $100 instead of back raising, Btn also choose to simply flat the $100. While not impossible i find it unlikely that any of the V's flopped 2 pair+.

The turn does add more draws to the board but doesn't complete any flop draws. And in regards to hand improvement, as Johnny noted above "I would think it's pretty hard for 77, K7, T7 or 73 to get to the turn considering pre/flop action"

i'm struggling to range V1 at this point, but given action up to this point on the turn, while i'm not loving the position we are in, I don't see how we can fold the turn.

This is a good point. The turn bet is for lol < 1/3 PSB, but it's also for $150, which is pretty serious $$$ at 1/3 NL. Yeah, this guy has been stabby at pots. But he's stabbing again for 1/2 his stack once it goes multiway to the turn?

GeverythingwedosucksballsG

Considering the flop play, we should either call, or make a much stronger raise to 140-150. In terms of the pot size, 100 is an intermediate amount that isn't going to get a lot of folds. Obviously, this is tainted by the results. Still, I agree that KQ is roughly equal to AA here. If we were playing AA, we would be raising more, I suspect. As a result, its probably a mistake to be raising smaller with KQ

good point, he's obv committing the rest of his stack with that bet pretty much.

Just to clarify, when you say again do you mean in this pot or in general? I ask because V5 led on the flop and checked the turn, V1 is who led the turn.

ETA: Remember V1 description:
V1: UTG, $425, middle age black guy. he will raise with good hands, or what he thinks are good hands. not afraid to GII pre with less than stellar hands if that action happens. he's in the game for probably 600-800, complaining that he's "running bad", but just doubled up. post flop i've seen him donk big (> psb) with hands that he perceives as good. several times he's done this and ended up not showing at showdown with losing hands. so he definitely overvalues hands. i consider him the A+ mark at the table.

So while yes V1 is pot committed now, according to description that's not necessarily so bad as he seems to overvalue hands and is the "Mark" for this hand.

Really don't see a problem with the flop raise size and it's certainly not spewy. It's a multiway pot - at some point someone is going to get good odds to draw. That's how math works. There is a fine line between giving poor direct odds and betting an amount that will never be called by worse and we are towing that line.

V3 called getting 2.9:1 so unless he has a combo draw that is a very -EV call. If V5 was donking with a flush draw (not a guarantee) he would have been laid 4.4:1 odds to continue if V3 folded and 6:1 with V3 folding. Same thing for V1. I would have went a pinch larger, $110-115, but to call the raise spewy or a mistake is a joke.

Yeah, my bad, I'm getting my villains mixed up. Looks like stabby guy is V5, not V1, and V1 can overvalue a hand. Still, I guess we're basically hoping V1 ends up with KJ here and other guy is on a draw? Committing at this point might be fine once we're in this spot.

Gstillnothappywiththesizeofthepotwe'vecreatedforth estrengthofourhandG

You're right. What I meant was, V5 and V3 should have folded out of turn.

Ok maybe raising isn't spewing but it's certainly very thin in a 5way pot. Raising to a size that doesn't price anyone out is spewing though, we want people to fold right? This is a protection raise, nothing else. Make it 150-180, Otherwise just call. Neither v who has already called/bet already is folding for $65 more into a pot of 300~ and getting jammed on is certainly not going to be fun

These are all very valid points, but how in the world are we planning on playing rivers? We're just praying to improve on the river or closing our eyes and calling down? I'd rather dump it and forget the hand ever happened