OP let's see a turn. Flop is clear x/c

I think playbig2000 said much more eloquently what I was trying to convey.

And although you said just now you were calling with a plan, somewhat independent of the flop results, we were reacting to your history in the original post. Card dead. Whiffing small pairs. Whiffing AQ and without much detail all signs point to fit or fold. This is not a winning strategy from the blinds against a Late position LAG.

Replace the J on the flop with a Q or an A or any other flop that doesnt hit your hand, and what happens when the aggro continues? While we appreciate that KsJs will flop well more often than 99, the calling plan seems to depend on flopping well, and then figuring out how to extract the most when you do...

Ive had bad nights doing this...and trying to play against lags with wide ranges is tough....more so out of position. Let him pick on your blinds. Iso raise him when its your button or cut off...or 3 bet from bb, and don't cap your range by calling

-I was whiffing two hands. One with AQ where i C-bet as the preflop aggressor and gave up on the turn when called by a pretty obvious top pair. And one hand i called a raise pre in position with small pocket pair and folded the flop in 3 way pot. That is couple of pretty standard pots in my opinion, and not a whole lot to build a foundation on to make the conclusion i am going to strictly play fit an fold. Make notice that both flatting and 3 betting pre gets alot of support when it comes to the decision pre in this thread, so i guess that tells us (me at least) about some complexity in this spot and that no option is a slam dunk. Its very good arguments for either line, thats why i chose this hand to make this thread.

-If the flop comes bad for me like dry A high as an example, its okay to check-fold also sometimes without that being wrong,neither does it make the flat pre not +EV. We dont need to win every pot for a certain line to be okay, as seems to be the case for a couple of posters ITT.

-Ive played with many (good) lags before with good results, so i really dont mind it even though i am not in love with being OOP of course. But the situation is what it is right, i am indeed in the big blind this hand and i got dealt a hand that absolutely crushes villain 2 opening range. The reason i made this thread is for a line check, get some different opinions and reflections on the hand/situation/adjustment to villain 2 because i felt that the hand had couple of decision points that could really go either way.

Alright, to the turn we go as demanded

Hero calls 30$, villain 1 folds so heads up against villain 2. Pot 106$ (before drop). Turn is the K Hero checks to vilain 2, who pauses and then fires out 70$. Hero?

J94 K

I'm torn between crai and just flatting

This board is pretty wet and a 70% OTT is telling us he has a hand. I guess I crai. Ugg, I kinda hate it though because it lets V get away from so much he barrels

Tough spot imo. If you think he could fire a third barrel with missed draws and value bet with Kx I think I prob flat. If you think there's a chance he checks those hands back otr, I'm prob raising this turn.

This sounds about right.

I really don't want to see a diamond, though, and a club would be ugly, too, so in game I probably I just raise now. Of course, he's probably a luck box and shows up with QT.

He should be barreling w lots of equity on this card, you're not deep, gii now.

I feel the same, but if we are WA & not WB, he is most likely checking the River unimproved & how can we fold if a 3rd comes & he fires, when he could have Tx8x? It could be T8
If he doesn't fire OTR we lose the $$ made OTT on an all in when he misses. Give V all the sets, J9 and only flush draws with T8 & it's a coin flip with H being 2% favorite. Add in QTs & H has 44% equity.

DISCLAIMER: I am not winning 10BBs+ over the last 2500hrs, so I am not a Crusher.

Snap shove and why is this a PAHWM? its too simple and standard

You can just flat pre or 3b from the blind but should be flatting more from bb and 3betting more from sb

I would 3bet for pure value here coz its a loose btn range. He will call with most aces pre and fold them after the flop giving you MASSIVE overlay. The looser the raise the better this hand performs when you raise pre

But call from bb is a little more std

Cc std otf

Jam now.

The hand played itself and is a bad PAWHM

You only have 60bbs so there isnt room to do anything. You are playing 2 street poker max so just get your money in and buy in full next time so you can post a real hand

c/r ott

the main reason I would c/r is we're OOP. we would have to lead the river rather than risk a check back, and another b'way, club or diamond will scare him.

not deep enough to do anything but x/jam turn ap - no reason to let him play rivers in position

the OP started with over 100 big bliinds

Oh, its 1/3 lol

I still jam coz there are 2 flush draws. I still wouldnt even think to post this hand. Top 2 is the nuts. UL if he has QT. I dont care if he folds worse

Very late to the game.

I would 3bet oop pf. The one thing LAGs hate is to face aggression. You know he's going to double barrel at least if you call. If your plan is to fold on the turn because you missed, you're dumping a lot of money.

As played on the flop, you decided to play passively. Therefore, you're going to call on the flop and turn. On the river, jam everything.

i much prefer to x/c river if we x/c turn. i assume only reason to x/c turn is to keep all the bluffs in his range (which I think he has a lot of). i like x/j because i think villain will call off jam a decent % of the time with hands that have a lot of equity.

and JB Clark not sure why you have to continuously bash on OP and try to shame him for posting this hand. all PAHWMs dont have to be the sickest spots ever. the guy just wants some feedback. need to chill.

Well i thought he had 60 bigs and not 100, but there isnt s real decision point in the hand. Raise for value now. He can put money in with worse if we give him the chamce. Not expecting the third barrel. If you call now you may have to c/f river UI.

But jam now is better

Everyone plays this hand the same so the hand is somewhat irrelevant

There appears to be 3 pages of respondents who disagree to one degree or another.

Good points.

You might want to consider offering to be the Poster Cop & getting permission to delete/lock any post you judge to not be worth our time.

Zune it, youre more than welcome to comment and you dont need to give us a disclaimer that youre not a 10 BBs pr hour crusher over the last 2500 hours. I appreciate comments, reflections and opinions from many types of players on different levels.

Regarding a third barrell from villain, i dont have really much info in game to gauge if he is indeed gonna fire once again if he whiff or turning his hand into a bluff of some sort on the river.Pretty much all the hands i observed with him involved have ended on the turn. But based on the playertype and my playerprofile on him i woudnt say its totally out of the realm of him having some multibarrell bluffs in him.

From my point of view though if we do choose to flat: wich rivers are we looking to call it off (if villain shoves), and wich rivers are we folding? Like, isnt it quite difficult to know wich rivers that may hit him and wich dont with this wet of a board with a myriad of different draws available?

If he's really double barrelling as much as you think he is call turn and don't fold river

I 3 ball it pre for a ton of reasons -

as played

check cawl flop
check stuff it in hiz face on the turn

He will never bluff you OTR. You are tight and you dont have enough behind so he wont have FE. This is why you have to get it in. The turn is your last chance to get paid off. Congrats if he shows up with better

3b pre

This is a text book example of why not to 3b this hand preflop.

Here we are, OTT, with about the best non-nut hand we could have, and V is still shipping us chips.

Pot is $100 (after drop), and we have $320-15-30 = $275 left. V bets almost 3/4 pot, $70. If we call, the pot will be $240 with $205 left OTR.

Now, the discussion is whether we should raise here and risk scaring V away, or just call here and see if we can get the remaining stack in on all river cards.

IMO, we should be raising here, as we would be raising if we had a draw, and we really don't think V will fold if he has any equity at this point. Raising AI is fine. But I might also just make it $150 -- announce raise, then push out the $70, then separately push out the additional $80. Let V see its a small raise.

If we had 3b pre, we most likely are AI OTT (possibly OTF). So its not that much different.

However, most of the time, with a hand like KJs, we're not going to flop very well. Flopping a J is great. Flopping a K is ok, but there are drawbacks (being out kicked, killing the action on a K-high flop, etc). Usually, we'll flop a draw of some sort.

If we 3b, and we flop a J, great.

If we 3b, and we flop a K, its probably a wash since sometimes V just folds, sometimes V out kicks us. Its unlikely he's going to run a 2 street bluff on a K high flop without something.

If we 3b and flop a draw, then we're in a position where we pretty much have to stack off and hope the draw comes in. Not great pokering, IMO. Hopefully we could get V to find a fold OTF or OTT, adding some FE to our draw.

The problem with FE in big pots is that big pots make aggressive villains sticky. So, yeah, maybe he folds to our 3b and we win his $15 pre. But if he calls (which he'll probably do most of the time), we're going to have to deal with him and a bloated pot -- and he's going to find himself pot committed much of the time (or he may even make a move for the big pot, which is even worse for hero if he has something like T8 on a Q97 flop).

If we merely call, then we have three things going for us: 1) the pot will be smaller and therefore, we may have more maneuverability against V, 2) having the second villain come along is not a problem as it will help us make the main villain play a little more face-up, 3) we don't have to stack off if we flop a crappy draw.

Alright guys, i guess were due for results. As i expected pre was the street where most people had different opinions and weighted certain arguments differently. After taking in the different opinions in this thread and sitting with the situation/dynamic for a while i still havent quite decided if i prefer 3 betting or flatting.

Anyway-hero had planned out to check-ship good turn cards, as we then have exploited villains eagerness to C-bet and barrell the turn and its kind of dicy to play rivers OOP on this wet of a board where even top two is kind of vulnerable. Its enough money in the pot already to wager all our chips, as villain 2 have put in money pre, on the flop and on the turn with a range i smash with KJ suited.

Villain snap calls after getting confirmation from the dealer that hero is allin, and just by his body language and the speed of the call i instantly know its bad news coming- and that villain happend to be on the top of his range. He fastrolls Q10 offsuit for the turned stones,no help for hero on the river.

I am confident this is just a cooler hand against this sort of aggro villain, and normally i just shrug it off, get a coffee or a drink and doesent think about it anymore. But this hand went down after several days of ridicilous runbad for me in all sort of ways imagineable, so when going through these kind of periods i sometimes just want to check my sanity and get some refreshing views on the hands i play.