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Old 05-11-2017, 01:39 AM   #1
Degenx2
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PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Hero is relatively new to table, doubled up once and won a few other pots, table probably doesn't have any reads yet other than playing tight/abc

Villain is late 30's, has an enormous stack, in the 4 orbits since I've sat he's raised pre a lot and seen lots of flops (He's played around 10 hands in 4 orbits, 30/20ish stats), showed down twice and had it both times.

Rest of table is your typical $1/3 split. There's two straight up OMCs (haven't played a hand yet between them), one other guy that's a carbon copy of V (30's, big stack, playing looser than you'd expect in this game though), 2 young guys are spewing chips everywhere, raising and calling a lot. The others are stations, mostly just limping in then mucking on the flop.

Hero (~$750, 250bb) UTG w/ AQ
+1 (~$300, OMC)
+2 (~$300, station)
MP (~$300, maniac)
MP+1(~$800, solid)
CO (~$300, OMC)
V (~$1600, covers) is on the button
SB (~$600, maniac)
BB (~$300, station)

Hero?
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:52 AM   #2
Tiltyjoker
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Raise.
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Old 05-11-2017, 02:11 AM   #3
Degenx2
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Given the two maniacs, is there any merit to limping or folding here? Or is it just always a standard open UTG?

To give you a few hands from these guys, I've seen one of them 3! into one of the OMCs then show 98s (or 87s, can't remember exactly), and the other has triple barrelled a whiffed flush draw and got looked up; and then value owned himself a few hands later betting out all 3 streets with two pair (can't remember the board but I remember V tank calling with a set so I assume it wasn't dry). Pretty sure he got felted a third time shortly after. That might have been after the current hand though.
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Old 05-11-2017, 02:55 AM   #4
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Have the active ones been 3 betting opens or just opening themselves?
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Old 05-11-2017, 03:29 AM   #5
Degenx2
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

There was lots of 3-betting and 4-betting going on the whole session. V, his doppelganger (MP+1 in this hand) and both maniacs were basically building pots and all-in on the flop every other hand.

It ramped up as the night went on though. Before this hand was played, I only remember the aforementioned 3-bet bluff with suited connectors.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:15 AM   #6
whereisit
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Quote:
Originally Posted by Degenx2 View Post
Given the two maniacs, is there any merit to limping or folding here? Or is it just always a standard open UTG?

To give you a few hands from these guys, I've seen one of them 3! into one of the OMCs then show 98s (or 87s, can't remember exactly), and the other has triple barrelled a whiffed flush draw and got looked up; and then value owned himself a few hands later betting out all 3 streets with two pair (can't remember the board but I remember V tank calling with a set so I assume it wasn't dry). Pretty sure he got felted a third time shortly after. That might have been after the current hand though.
Yeah, if you are not comfortable playing pots out of position this deep you can just fold this. Personally I'm raising, but probably folding AJo though.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:24 AM   #7
Petrucci
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

I am raising to 15$ ish, but its no shame in folding AQ off UTG at a tough aggro table with deep stacks. Even skilled pros dont make much money with AK off from UTG with similar table conditions (deep stacks,sticky opponents and/or aggro dynamics with lots of 3 and 4 betting), so i mean folding AQ off is not far off at all.

AJ off is a clear fold imo.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:24 AM   #8
Degenx2
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Alright, cool. I briefly considered a fold, but obviously wouldn't be posting this thread if I'd gone through with it, so continuing along...

Hero opens to $15 (~$735 behind)
UTG+1 folds
UTG+2 calls (~$285 behind)
folds round to button
V calls (~$1585 behind)
both blinds fold

flop comes KJT

Hero?
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:29 AM   #9
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

pf 15
flop 35
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:30 AM   #10
Petrucci
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Hero recognizes that on this board we can get alot of value from all type of holdings from made hands to draws, and bets close to full pot or at least 3/4 pot.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:53 AM   #11
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Open is OK. If I'm really sure someone will bet behind me I might limp raise it if I can get SPR really low. Honestly with dynamics limp call isn't horrific either.


Flop: Obvious PSB is obvious. They'll know you're strong, but no one ever thinks you're THAT strong.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:56 AM   #12
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Pre is fine. Flop, PSB.
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:04 AM   #13
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwolyswoND View Post
Pre is fine. Flop, PSB.
+1 - possibly overbet flop tbh
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:09 AM   #14
whereisit
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
Open is OK. If I'm really sure someone will bet behind me I might limp raise it if I can get SPR really low. Honestly with dynamics limp call isn't horrific either.
Do you have a limp/reraise range outside of AQ+? I don't know how people feel about l/rr nowadays, but I always thought it was a pretty bad play and almost always the nuts.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:31 AM   #15
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

I would limp.

At least two big stacks have position on us, and they sound like they might be solid players. So right off the bat I'm not looking to build a big bloated pot OOP to them. And being the first to act preflop, there is a very good chance we do end up building a big bloated multiway pot because we have zero clue who / how many are interested in their hand (and with a few loose players at the table, I'm guessing a raise is very likely to go multiway, right?).

If we limp in, we can see who raises and react accordingly. If one of the tight OMCs raise, we can simply fold for cheap. If the shorter $300 stack maniac raises and gets some calls, we can limp/reraise (perhaps even shove for his stack preflop). If the deeper maniac raises, we'll have to figure that one out. If one of the solid guys raise, we can probably also just nit fold for cheap (we think AQo OOP to a solid player is going to be profitable?). If it limps around, whatever, play a high SPR pot where we shouldn't get ourselves into to much trouble.

I fold AJo in EP without so much as a second thought. So I'm not going to go bonkers with AQo.

ETA: I'm actually perfectly ok with a fold preflop too. Although I think with the "shorter" stacked maniac at the table I'd rather limp in for cheap and just see if I can perhaps play for his stack preflop.

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Old 05-11-2017, 11:35 AM   #16
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Wow, was a 3way result expected? Wasn't expecting that, and I'm guessing you weren't either?

Lol, nice flop.

Sounds like we have a station in the hand, so let's let him do his thing. I PSB the flop and go from there.

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Old 05-11-2017, 11:38 AM   #17
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Quote:
Originally Posted by whereisit View Post
I don't know how people feel about l/rr nowadays, but I always thought it was a pretty bad play and almost always the nuts.
Really table / stack dependent, and you'll no doubt get a *bunch* of polar opinions on it, but in a lot of situations I think a limp/reraise >>>>> raise.

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Old 05-11-2017, 11:51 AM   #18
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

The only real time I think it would be warranted is if the person to your direct left is raising everything and the other players are all coming along with a pretty high frequency (this is with AK/QQ+). Also, I'm pretty surprised to see you want to play for 100bb with AQo, but I suppose if they aren't 3b initially their ranges should be capped.

Anyways, back to the hand, seems like a pretty easy $40 bet.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:56 AM   #19
gobbledygeek
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Quote:
Originally Posted by whereisit View Post
The only real time I think it would be warranted is if the person to your direct left is raising everything and the other players are all coming along with a pretty high frequency (this is with AK/QQ+). Also, I'm pretty surprised to see you want to play for 100bb with AQo, but I suppose if they aren't 3b initially their ranges should be capped.
Well obviously that's a great situation for it (i.e. guy on our left raising a lot and getting callers).

But in general, I just feel at a lotta loose tables raising in EP simply gets us in horrific spots where we go very multiway, OOP, sometimes to difficult opponents, setup ugly SPRs (where stacks can easily be played for), and are in just crap spots with hands that we are most likely to flop (which is just TP). For me it really boils down to how awesome a situation you think this is (and if you consider this an awesome situation, then don't limp/reraise).

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Old 05-11-2017, 04:18 PM   #20
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

I don't limp raise often, but my limp raise range is much wider than KK+. There's a lot of variables.

If playing a limped pot is OK with my hand then that helps.
If raising is going to put me in bad spots a lot, then it's better.
If I can set up a flop stack off situation with a bad player then it's better.


Sometimes I'll find I can limp raise a relatively wide range and get called by worse from a whale and at the same time fold out everything but the very top of ranges from better players who assume I have the only hand they'd ever do that with.

I limp raised AKs UTG to 20bb today and got called by 78s in MP with 3 players to act behind. You can imagine how much money you can make in situations like that when the SPR is 4:1 and most often less (we happened to start out 200bb deep). It's not my main play but setting up that situation is better than seeing a flop 6 ways with an SPR of 7:1.

That's my opinion anyway. Like I said, it's just a trick in my box. Not my standard play.
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Old 05-11-2017, 04:23 PM   #21
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

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Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
It's not my main play but setting up that situation is better than seeing a flop 6 ways with an SPR of 7:1.
Mods, this user may have stolen my account.

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Old 05-11-2017, 04:51 PM   #22
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

[Grunch]

I fold because of this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DegenX2
Rest of table is your typical $1/3 split. There's two straight up OMCs (haven't played a hand yet between them), one other guy that's a carbon copy of V (30's, big stack, playing looser than you'd expect in this game though), 2 young guys are spewing chips everywhere, raising and calling a lot. The others are stations, mostly just limping in then mucking on the flop.
The players in bold are the type that like to flat with AK.
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:08 PM   #23
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

$15 pre.

$50 on the flop.

Station gunna station.
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:10 PM   #24
Degenx2
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Wow, was a 3way result expected? Wasn't expecting that, and I'm guessing you weren't either?

GcluelessNLnoobG
Nope, definitely not. This is one of the few hands of the night that didn't get 3! or go mass multiway to the flop.

Anyway, doesn't seem to be much argument with the line here.

Hero bets $35 (~$700 behind)
Station calls $35 (~$250 behind)
V calls $35 (~$1550 behind)
Pot is $154
Turn comes 5

In hindsight I think my bet was perhaps a bit weak. I like the PSB/overbet lines here a bit better, not sure how much of that is results-oriented though. I really didn't want to see two flat calls on a board with 2 hearts, I would have liked to get the station off his draw-y crap (or charge him a bunch) and build the pot with V while I'm still ahead.

What is villain flatting here? Obviously he has a ton of flush draws in his range (*vomit*), I'm assuming Kx flats here a lot too?

Station could have anything, I guess. I'd imagine he's folding weak Tx and flatting everything else from AT to flush draws to straights?
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:29 PM   #25
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Re: PAHWM: ($1/3) AQo UTG deep gets tricky

Check.
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