Game is pretty new, as whole poker room was in tourney and games formed as tables became available. Villain 1 appears to be best player at table. I play very little casino poker but I remember him from a game about 6 months ago. He has been playing a lot of small ball because one player (irrelevant to this hand) is a COMPLETE novice, playing with a buddy and asking whether trips beats a flush. He has been calling about every bet, so long as it stays in the 15-25 range. Villain 2 is pretty passive. Villain 3 is mostly passive as well. Effective stacks are 300.

10 handed. Two limpers to V2, on my right, in HJ. The two guys to his right are complete newbs, so when V2 has $6 in front of him I'm not sure if it's two bets commingled. I ask if he raised and he giggled and said that he did, to 6. I am in cutoff with AsQh Hero raises to 22. V3 flats on button, as does V1 in BB and so does V2. Okay with raise and amount?

95. Four to flop, which is 10,8,3sss

V1 donks for 20. V2 calls. Hero?

Hero calls. Can't see any poi t in raising here as they wikk just call with any one pair hand anyway. Just call, realise our equity, and if we hit, bomb it hard, as they will pay us off.

Easy call. Hit and extract. Miss and fold.

Flat all the way. Great odds, raise is unlikely to achieve what you need it to the majority of the time.

I always find these little raises preflop tricky (especially with these stacks) because sometimes it is just a moronic play and other times it is actually a monster hoping to get played back at. I typically want to prevent setmining odds, so I'd probably 3bet large here to $45 to do that. Problem with that is that it'll often blow everyone out of the pot.

The smaller raise got us 4ways with a small SPR (which I find a difficult spot as we're kinda handcuffed a lot), but I'm guessing we didn't expect that result.

I have zero clue what a competent V1 could be donking 1/5 PSB on the flop, unless it is a made flush looking to milk, a very weird bet imo. Anyhoo, we're getting an amazing 7:1 to chase our flush draw against 2 opponents (might not have much FE) and only have the one guy behind us, so I just call and hope to hit. I guess you could also argue to play this hard since a 1/5 PSB and call is *so* weak looking and maybe we do have good FE here, but really a good V1 shouldn't be putting any money into this pot unless he is thinking of committing (it's possible this weak bet is to induce a raise) so that's why I think I rather play passively here.

ETA: Unlike others, I'm not nearly as confident we make any money if a 4th spade comes (unless someone has the Ks or has flopped a set and is willing to chase). However, we're already getting our immediate required odds+, so I'm not too concerned about that.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Couple of thoughts. I had the same weird reaction to the 20 donk -- it felt like a made flush looking to milk, but unless its KsXs or something like that, the play is very risky, inviting people with my exact holding to call.

I didn't expect that the $3 raise was anything tricky -- he was just goofy.

The other dynamic is that I brainlocked on the suits of my cards. I am usually good about memorizing the suits, but apparently got distracted and forgot. Once the flop hits I am trying to be subtle about checking my hole cards, but V1 is staring at me the whole time, so I know he noticed. That will factor out as this hand continues, because the majority of the time I re-check my hole cards is when I have a big pair and get a draw like this.

So I do flat the 20. 3 to the turn, pot at 149. Next card off is 5d, making board 10s8s3s5d. V1 bets 20 again, V2 folds. Hero?

Lol, are you sure you're not in a Limit game with all of these sizings?

Can't recall the last time I got 8.5:1 to call a turn bet in NL. I just take my great immediate odds and call. His bets are obviously screaming weakness, although on the other hand it is his second donk into multiple opponents in a row.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I'd consider just ripping it all in on the turn. He almost never has a hand he can call with, and we are never drawing dead.

But calling is probably better. I suspect your A and Q are outs as well and he's clearly not going to put you in any difficult spots on the river.

So I think Dubey raises the question that prompted this thread. After his turn bet, pot is 169 and I have about 260 behind. If I shove, it looks very much like I have something like AKss or AQss. Even if he has a set, he has to send 240 after 429, with 10 outs. Seems like a tough call for him. Thoughts?

The thing that I always come back to is the read that Villain 1 appears to be the best player at the table. One of the reasons the best player at the table is bets a lol $20 into $150 is to feign weakness and induce a raise, and he's correctly identified the Hero as the correct opponent to do that against as Hero is considering doing exactly that.

Can't remember who said it, but one of the keys to poker is to "figure out what your opponent wants you to do, and then disappoint him".

Course, it's also possible our read is a little off and he's lol betting Tx / no draw. But I typically err on the side of caution until I have a better idea.

Gatleast,that'smytakeonthesituationG

absolutely raising flop bet always...you're ahead of a $20 bet range all streets considered.

gotta go for value...

Last time I raised a weak tiny bet I got my ass 3bet. Just call. Even if you don't catch your spade you'll be able to play near perfect river poker. Sure you might occasionally lose some value to a weak spade looking to draw but that's a minority imo. Especially against described v.

Okay. So did just call the 20 turn bet. 189 to river, heads up. River is 9h

Board is now 10s8s3s5d9h.

V1 bets 20 Again. Hero? Remember that he saw me doublecheck my hole cards on flop, if that influences you n

Interesting river here, I would be so tempted to slam it all in the middle and rep that straight.....villan is clearly not a great player with his lol sizing, and now just looks stupid weak....we haven't shown any interest in raising this hand to this point, villan is value betting anything strong here.....I reallly like a jam here.....
Because if the lol sizing I'm tempted to call, but we should probably fold, guess villan has 10x....if you think he folds a10 then jam, if you think he calls a jam with a10 then fold.

Does *he* think he's sitting in a Limit game?

On the river we're getting 10.5:1, which means he has to be doing something ******ed with a worse hand just 9% of the time for a call to be profitable (enough Ksx in the mix?). Course, I'm guessing he's never expecting a better hand to fold for just $20, but you never know. But jeez, it might almost be worth it to call just for read purposes alone.

Glolz@thishandG

So the conclusion to this hand is along the lines of what ronrabbit mentioned. I tanked for awhile, which is unusual for me, and decided to sell the straight. I considered that I could tell the same tale by raising to 120. Thinking here is that it could look more like a value bet than shoving.

He tanked for a good while and called, saying "show me the flush."

He then tabled Ac8c for 3rd pair and a winner. I'm assuming that he put me on AKo, with one spade.

In retrospect, the straight wasn't believable because the 9 was the river card. Had either the 8 or 10 been the river card on same board it's a better story.

Strange hand.

If you hadn't checked your hole cards, I would like a raise on the flop. I think you can get even top pair to fold a good percentage of the time and you have a lot of outs (spades, aces, queens), as well as some turn cards that you can bluff (kings, jacks). With a $20 raise and a call, V1 and V2 almost never have a strong hand here. But once you call, they know that you almost never do either.

Also, once you see V1 make a $20 donk bet here, I think you need to reassess your belief that he's a strong player. Certainly by the river, he's shown that he plays goofy poker. He's not a player to fear.

As played, I don't think you can bluff the river. You've played your hand like the draw that it is. Even a middling player will think about calling you with any made hand. That's why I like a raise earlier in the hand. (Although not after you've checked your hole cards.)