PAHWM 1/2 interesting flop and turn w/ KK - Page 2 - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

This. This nonsense of only getting called by better is just that, nonsense. Your villain just min-raised you OOP he probably doesn't even know how to tie his shoelaces let alone play poker.

I strongly agree. Many bad rec players will call with a draw or top pair.

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03-08-2018 , 05:39 PM

#28

Regwill7

newbie

Join Date: Jan 2018 Posts: 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

How on earth would you know? Maybe he's just stringing you along and hoping you'll jam AA/KK.

That is true. Given my live read, V did not feel strong though. He seemed unsure how to react to my flat and how to proceed on the blank 2d turn.

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03-08-2018 , 05:51 PM

#29

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,772

Well, if you have a read now, by all means go with it.

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03-08-2018 , 05:54 PM

#30

Joey913

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 1,300

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

How on earth would you know? Maybe he's just stringing you along and hoping you'll jam AA/KK.

Though we don't have a lot of info on this villain, I think you are outleveling yourself most of the time in 1/2 if you start thinking like this. V min-raised to $52 on the flop and now has bet $20 on the turn. Feels very weak. Most 1/2 villains with a set or 2 pair would tend to bet too much rather than too little here because they are scared of the straight and flush draws.

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03-08-2018 , 05:56 PM

#31

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,772

Yes, but if he's very weak, why do we want to bomb him off his hand? Maybe make it $60 or $80, but I think if he's very weak he's folding to almost any raise.

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03-08-2018 , 06:07 PM

#32

HawkesDave

adept

Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 1,173

A raise to $70 or $80 sounds right. You're denying him his equity on the $20 bet and betting for value. If you're confident that he's on a draw, if he doesn't hit his draw he's not going to call you off on the river anyway so why not try to get paid now?

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03-08-2018 , 06:29 PM

#33

Joey913

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 1,300

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

Yes, but if he's very weak, why do we want to bomb him off his hand? Maybe make it $60 or $80, but I think if he's very weak he's folding to almost any raise.

I feel like V could have a hand like A

, or a AQ, saw what looked like a good flop where min-raising felt right, and now on the brick turn just feels like he has to continue to bet at least something here to set his price. Not good, logical poker thinking but this is 1/2.

First, these kinds of hands my 1/2 villains often call even if we bomb it because they have to see if they hit. But second, if he's going to fold to most raises, so be it, we're happy to take the pot down now. The alternative is to let him see a free card.

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03-08-2018 , 07:56 PM

#34

Regwill7

newbie

Join Date: Jan 2018 Posts: 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkesDave

If we raise to $80 on turn and he call V only has ~$70 behind. Assuming he has a draw this allows him to play perfectly on the river. Also if he’s drawing and the flush or straight hits are we folding to his all in getting nearly 1/6.5?

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03-08-2018 , 08:04 PM

#35

Amanaplan

acanalpanamA

Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 5,628

Too shallow to do anything other than shove, and that’s a good thing as it’s also your highest EV option. You could have elected to check flop as well, but I like bet-shove turn or bet-gii flop when raised.

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03-08-2018 , 08:12 PM

#36

HawkesDave

adept

Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 1,173

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regwill7

I'd rather get $80 of value and call an ugly river getting a good price than to blow the doors off his weak hand/draw on the turn and get him to fold, yes.

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03-08-2018 , 08:28 PM

#37

Regwill7

newbie

Join Date: Jan 2018 Posts: 31

Results!!!

Appreciate all of the responses and input, so thanks everyone.

For those interested in the results, here they are:

I read V lead as very weak (one pair or a draw) so the best EV play given this read is to shove. So H jams ~$140 effective and V calls with AcQd. River is 8h and H wins with KK.

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03-08-2018 , 09:59 PM

#38

GusMcrae

centurion

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 154

I think this is a must call for Hero. You’re calling 26 to win 140.

You only need 18% equity to call.

If V only has QJ and the sets you have 20% equity versus that range and in reality he has draws and AQ a good amount too.

If you give V half the QQ combos and half the AQ combos, you have about 38% versus that range, which is a great overlay to see the turn in position.

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03-09-2018 , 10:08 AM

#39

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,772

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regwill7

Looks as if you were getting all his money, anyway, because if he wasn't folding now, he wasn't folding on the river. However, I think you are lucky he's bad enough to call. Should be an easy mark

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03-09-2018 , 11:46 AM

#40

Joey913

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 1,300

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

Looks as if you were getting all his money, anyway, because if he wasn't folding now, he wasn't folding on the river. However, I think you are lucky he's bad enough to call. Should be an easy mark

Wait a second. Before you were worried Vs small raise could be baiting us to raise him so you wanted to flat turn. If hero had flatted turn and V would have checked river or bet small on a blank, suddenly you were going to spring to life and jam river?

Seems pretty clear to me that had we flatted turn stacks would not have gotten in

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03-09-2018 , 12:23 PM

#41

HawkesDave

adept

Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 1,173

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey913

Seems pretty clear to me that had we flatted turn stacks would not have gotten in

If you bet $80 on the turn, V would have like $75 left on the river with a big pot with top pair, why wouldn't stacks not have gotten in? Of course they would have.

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03-09-2018 , 12:38 PM

#42

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,772

If V is getting it in on turn, he's getting it in on river, because he's betting river, even if small. Bad V's are much more likely to sigh-call on river after putting another bet in than calling a shove on turn, especially since H thought V was weak on turn. Plus, if we raise to $60 - $80, as also suggested instead of jamming, he'll feel completely committed on river. From my experience, bad V's would rather put money in slowly and sigh-call when they feel committed than call a large raise and put it in all at once, but your experience might be different.

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03-09-2018 , 02:49 PM

#43

tuds38

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 522

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javanewt

If V is getting it in on turn, he's getting it in on river, because he's betting river, even if small.

Perhaps not if the river is a club, K or T. Then he might check-fold or check-call a smaller bet.

I agree turn bet is suspiciously small and does not suggest major value since H has already shown he is pretty interested in the pot and would likely call a bigger pot. Would V really be going for pot control with better than 1 pair? With deeper stacks I probably just flat turn and evaluate river but seems shallow enough to just go for it.

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03-09-2018 , 06:39 PM

#44

Joey913

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 1,300

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkesDave

If you bet $80 on the turn, V would have like $75 left on the river with a big pot with top pair, why wouldn't stacks not have gotten in? Of course they would have.

I agree with you. I was pointing out that Javanewt wanted to flat turn and then (after results came out) claimed that all the money was going to go in anyways. My point is that if we flat the turn because we are scared that V has a monster then stacks in fact would not have gone in on the river.