I think overlimping QTo is bad at 90% of the games I play and raising it is good at probably 50%. Its simply tougher to play in a multiway limped pot vs wide handranges.

Would you rather play a bloated multiway pot with QT vs stronger calling ranges or a small multiway pot with QT vs weaker limping ranges?

I'd rather play QT heads up in position against a fit or fold player instead of those two options. If not possible then just dump it pre. QT just isn't going to hit big often enough. And people limp in with hands like KQ, QJ, AQ all the time. Whereas if you raise pre and they miss flop with AQ, you can often steal it. But yes at a lot of loose tables I'm just folding pre. You can make a case for limping if someone's so bad theyre stacking off with middle pair or top pair no kicker in limped pots

With any unpaired hand, 2% to flop two pairs using both cards, 1.3% to flop trips, 1.3% to flop a straight. Those are terrible odds and you end up bleeding way too much money long term limping. If suited, 0.84% of flopping a flush and 10.9% of flopping a FD. 1 out of 3 chance of flopping a pair but you're often dominated. Good luck making money limping when you're basically forced to play fit or fold in a limpfest. The issue is not our ability to fold strong second best hands (which is easy against fish usually), its that we don't hit big often enough

bigger pots in position vs the weaker opponents on average (the more competent opponents are folding more often OOP to a solid players raise). Im not necessarily saying your wrong but for the majority of the games I play raising these hands is superior. It gives me the ability to cbet good boards or take the free card b/c at my games it nearly always checks to the raiser. I can also rep A and K turns and don't have to flop as good b/c the field is thinned.

Over-limping from LP is ass. Play a raised pot or don't play. You'll more than make up the difference of playing for raises by throwing away junk hands that just get us in trouble. Also, it's harder to get good value from made hands when you limp because the pot's so small otf. "Pot sweetener" raises (4-6bb's-ish) build nice pots, fold out the more utter garbage limp hands (punish the limpers!), keep the pots multiway, which we like with more spec hands, and will keep you honest by (hopefully) keeping you from playing trash like J6o.

Depends if you're planning on attacking some boards. The more fold equity you have the wider you can limp. Generally there's more fold equity because V's don't have as much money invested and they don't want to stack off with 1 pair hands in limped pots.

Yes im attacking fairly often

what are your normal raises then? my games either play 3-4bb raise or 5-7. But yes I generally make these slightly smaller raises with my more speculative hands if I decide to play them at all

I think in general most people over limp way too wide. It's okay to over limp some speculative hands if the players are just so bad post flop, and I mainly mean they are paying off. You can steal some pots in some games, too. The rake is just so killer in anywhere but Vegas when you over limp a couple players you're not winning significant pots unless the players are really bad.

Raising speculative hands even in position is not exactly the bread and butter of LLSNL, either. Off-suit hands like AT, KT, KJ, QJ, QT, and JT are so mediocre after a few limpers. You're almost never winning a big pot and you're getting best-handed a lot when you do flop something. Suited all these hands play way better because if you raise it's going multiway often.

The only hands I typically over limp are small-mid pocket pairs and Axs when the stacks are reasonable. Raising the above suited broadways, AJ+, 88+, generally. Suited connectors are pretty trashy without reasonable stack sizes and fold equity, IMO.

I think performing the "What would Ivey do?" experiment is great practice and super fun.

My perception of him is that if there are a couple limpers he'd limp behind with anything that has some kind of playability. He'd check out the flop texture and then size up each limper (This looks like a clown that'll pay me off. I can get this nit to fold top or middle pair with a couple barrels.)

These are murky waters to navigate and we can easily get lost and start spewing and playing bad but I believe it is the path to creative and expert play. Iso raising is still our bread and butter but this is a way we can play more than our fair share of hands.

Maybe at 100bb stacks the limp range should only be suited aces, pure SCs, higher one gappers, small PPs, and weak broadways. I'm not sure. But as stacks get deepers we can loosen the range more and more.

I like how you think OP and I think you are on the right path.

you'd rather fold KQ pre than over limp in late position? seems bad

clearly the ladder

It's ok to over limp marginal hands as long as you aren't the player to limp with JT and stack off on T46 board

KQ is not a weak hand when there are limpers in front. I'm raising almost always but limping at very very loose tables

You may as well limp in with ATC trying to flop the nuts. With JTo, you only have 5% to flop two pairs+. And when you flop two pairs, it's often on a board with possible straights. Since most players are so passive and loose, you'll be up against AT, KT, QT, AJ, KJ, QJ a ton. You're giving everyone a chance to realize their equity especially the blinds and you're relying on your ability for your JT to flop the best hand AND hold up against multiple players even though someone almost always has you dominated.

this. You can limp in with JT and a few other hands you normally wouldn't if you can steal often post flop. The problem is when it's a limped pot, you'll often be up against 4 or 5 villains and bluffing that many people with air is almost always -ev

Mediocre hands like KQ? What the ****?

I think this is really player dependent. I try and play a TAG game, and am always trying to play more tight and more aggressive, so overlimping isn't something that I worry too much about. You're obviously a more LAG type and more advanced to the point where your only real way of figuring out the answer to this question is to experiment and limp w some trashy hands and see how it works out. I don't think you will find the answer on the forum. Personally I will not limp 64o, 107o, etc because it goes against my personal strategy, but it can probably be profitable given you're an exceptional post flop player and the villains mostly are bad.

You do realize there is a third option?

If I feel I have a very realistic chance at narrowing the field to 3way at absolute most (and HU preferably), then I'd raise any hand I'm considering playing. After just 2 loose limpers and possible loose blinds, this is going to be hard to accomplish at most tables I play at, so I'd typically only be raising premiums. Otherwise, I'm overlimping a rather wide range (typically 99-, any two broadway cards (suited or unsuited), Axs, Kxs, plus 0/1/2 gappers (suited or unsuited) except for perhaps the very small ones). I'm playing extremely tight on the flop in multiway limped pots (easily giving up TP / no draw to very little action).

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Yeah this is exactly what im talking about. Is this only for the btn, or co as well?

Even earlier if table conditions are right, imo. With passive players behind us at a non-raisey table, I'm often looking to get into a pot with a decent percentage of these hands after a couple/few limpers and MP+, maybe reserving the weakest hands for just Button/CO.

But, again, keep in mind that our default mode is going to be folding on the flop with pretty much anything other than monster-making potential hands.

Don't limp without pockets. Raise or fold

Way late but at least you weren't wrong