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Old 02-15-2014, 06:25 PM   #1
HappyLuckBox
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Overlimping hand range in btn/co

What kind of hands are you guys overlimping with in the btn/co when playing around 100Bb effective stacks? Lets assume blinds are passive and dont squeeze often.
Say 2-3 limpers to you on the btn, do you limp in with 64o? How about on the cutoff with say 86o?

Im starting to experiment with my game and loosening up my ranges somewhat. Valuing/Bluffing in good spots postflop in position. Id like to open up a discussion about this and see what others think.
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:30 PM   #2
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

just fold those unless guys are playing unreal bad postflop I also widen my range/tighten my range based on rake. I will limp the button a lot more if the top will stay under $10(no rake and less if my money will make it a $10 pot especially at rooms that take a jackpot drop
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:37 PM   #3
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

Well it depends on how the players play. If they're stacking off with top pair in limped pots and have a decent stack size then you can limp in wider. But generally I have a 25% VPIP on button. I think most people even winning regs limp in too wide. It's also hard to win a big lot in a limped pot unless you're up against a whale or cooler someone.
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:40 PM   #4
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

I'll limp Axs, 22-88, AT+, KJ, QJ+, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, and SCs 54s or better and suited gappers 64s or better and some off suit connectors like 76o+. That's if I think people are stacking off with top pair in limped pot. Otherwise I would fold a lot of the weaker hands. And at tighter tables I'd raise with a lot of the broadway hands
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:43 PM   #5
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

Also because I'm almost always raising hands like KQ+, AJ+, 99+ and some other Broadway's, i only limp on the button 15% of the time or so when there are multiple limpers. It's just too easy to bleed chips long term when you can limping 97o trying to hit gin and get people to pay you. The fish are doing the exact same thing: limping in with crappy hands trying to flop the nuts. How are you supposed to make money against a weak range with a weak hand when you can't bluff out three players? This doesn't even take rake into consideration. The next time fold hands like 97o, T6s, Suited face card rags on the button for a week. Then count up how much money you have saved vs how much money you would've "won" had you played the hand. Results will surprise you.
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:48 PM   #6
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

My thought process is: Even though i am overlimping with a weak range, i am using my position and superior postflop skills to win more $ than my opponents, long term. Yes sometimes our weak range will be beaten, but if we have an edge it should nullify that
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:53 PM   #7
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

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My thought process is: Even though i am overlimping with a weak range, i am using my position and superior postflop skills to win more $ than my opponents, long term. Yes sometimes our weak range will be beaten, but if we have an edge it should nullify that
This doesn't mean much when we have to showdown the best hand a lot. We are playing a super weak range against three or more villains. We likely will be unable to bluff all three out very often. So what's left is to make the best hand at showdown when hands that just don't flop well even when they hit. And to top it off its a limped pot and people have weak hands themselves so its hard for you to win big. You limp in 10 hands you shouldn't have pre in an hour and there goes $20. Then you bleed more chips post flop by chasing draws or calling with TPNK and folding to turn. Then when you hit big you don't necessarily win big either. This is not a recipe for success.
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:55 PM   #8
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

Take K6s-K2s, Q6s-Q2s for example. I see some winning regs limp in with hands like K2s just because there's a lot of limpers. But how are we supposed to make money with this hand? When we flop a pair, it's either bottom pair or TPNK which is rarely good. Even if we hit trip kings and we get action we're often beat. The hand we are looking for is a flush but flushes rarely come and they are very obvious even to the most oblivious fish. And flush over flush is really rare
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:59 PM   #9
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

I mean k2s is a pretty standard overlimp otb if stacks are 100bb+ deep, at least for me. I was speaking more of 64o type hands heh.

I understand where your coming from slim, but like i said im experimenting with opening up my ranges. If we want to become a better player we need to start getting practice playing marginal hands in marginal spots. As far as my abc game goes, im not saying ive mastered it, but id say its pretty damn good.
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Old 02-15-2014, 07:16 PM   #10
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

I've done a lot of experimenting too. I used to limp in with a lot do those hands but I realized how often I ended up bleeding chips with those hands even with a big skill edge and position against a bunch of stations. You're trying to play fit or fold poker with a lot of hands when the truth is most hands are -ev to play long term. If you fold pre it's neutral. I want to raise hands like KTo on button to isolate and punish the fit or fold players. I'll steal the pot when they miss and take them to value town when I hit top pair. They rarely put me to a tough decision either. I'm using my position, skill edge, initiative etc to the maximum with high cards as a backup. Obviously at super loose tables we can't isolate so I would limp in a little wider but I still think Kxs, 96o type hands are too loose
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Old 02-15-2014, 07:18 PM   #11
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

Think about it. Hands like small PPs can hit sets and win huge and they're hidden. Hands like KJo, you can flop a pair 1 out of 3 times and take donkies to value town since they limp trash limp K2s, J7o. 64o is too weak, it's 6 high, can't really make strong hands short of a straight or two pairs.
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Old 02-15-2014, 07:31 PM   #12
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

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Think about it. Hands like small PPs can hit sets and win huge and they're hidden. Hands like KJo, you can flop a pair 1 out of 3 times and take donkies to value town since they limp trash limp K2s, J7o. 64o is too weak, it's 6 high, can't really make strong hands short of a straight or two pairs.

But then you are implying a professional poker player like ivey could not profitably limp with some of these hands were discussing, and we know for a fact thats not true. Hes good enough to make almost any hand profitable. He must have practiced somewhere. And im thinking terrible villians make good practice


My game has evolved to the point now where I believe I have very few leaks, and I am usually the best player at the table. I want to take it to the next level now, and start experimenting doing some things to try and push my winrate even higher.

Last edited by HappyLuckBox; 02-15-2014 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 02-15-2014, 07:45 PM   #13
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

You can't compare high stakes to llsnl. Ivey can play a lot of hands for several reasons: he is playing against competent players who know how to fold, he knows people's adjustments to him, he can apply more pressure, it disguises his range more and makes it very hard to put him on a hand. At llsnl, balance is often pointless, you have to showdown a lot of hands, etc. if Ivey played a 70% VPIP in llsnl, he would lose in that game.
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Old 02-15-2014, 07:46 PM   #14
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

Being the best player at a $1/2 table doesn't mean much considering even most of the winning regs aren't that good. If you want to take your game to the next level, learn to apply maximum pressure without spewing. Raise just often enogh and double barrle just enough that players have no idea what you have. then get paid huge when you hit big. Learn to isolate over and over and tilt villains. Learn to thin value bet to death. Open up your 3bet game.Etc etc.
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Old 02-15-2014, 07:51 PM   #15
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

I should have clarified im not referring to 1-2 but rather a mix of 2-5, 2-5deepstack (average stack size over $1000), and 5-10.

At 1-2 limping i agree limping garbage doesnt work because you need to showdown way too often. Too many super stations. At certain 2-5 tables though, and some of the higher games i play, showdowns are a bit less common.
It obviously depends on the table dynamics alot too.
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Old 02-15-2014, 08:35 PM   #16
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

I still think its a mistake to limp a lot usually. Raise pre instead to isolate at those tables.
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Old 02-15-2014, 09:26 PM   #17
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I'm over limping a lot of hands on the button (almost my whole range) I only do this because I am confident I can get away from marginal spots. My range is wider otb as opposed to the CO or HJ
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Old 02-15-2014, 09:27 PM   #18
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I still think its a mistake to limp a lot usually. Raise pre instead to isolate at those tables.
Disagree. Rarely can you raising multiple limpers pre and get the pot heads up, you are almost always playing multiway, which is ok in position but sucks with a mediocre hand like QJ KQ AT etc
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:12 PM   #19
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

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Originally Posted by HappyLuckBox View Post
What kind of hands are you guys overlimping with in the btn/co when playing around 100Bb effective stacks? Lets assume blinds are passive and dont squeeze often.
Say 2-3 limpers to you on the btn, do you limp in with 64o? How about on the cutoff with say 86o?

Im starting to experiment with my game and loosening up my ranges somewhat. Valuing/Bluffing in good spots postflop in position. Id like to open up a discussion about this and see what others think.
basically only AXs(2-9), and 22-88(99). perhaps a little tight but I will raise QJ,JTs or anything else I decide I want to play.
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I still think its a mistake to limp a lot usually. Raise pre instead to isolate at those tables.
Totally agree I love taking control from these LP spots with 78hh, AT, etc. and if I decide not to raise I fold.
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Disagree. Rarely can you raising multiple limpers pre and get the pot heads up, you are almost always playing multiway, which is ok in position but sucks with a mediocre hand like QJ KQ AT etc
ive played many a hand like this profitably and I think its almost always better than limping.

Last edited by Wilverine; 02-15-2014 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:45 PM   #20
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

If you can't isolate with weak Broadways at your table I would fold pre
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:46 PM   #21
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

It's nearly impossible to play too tight but you are definitely playing too loose.
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Old 02-15-2014, 11:15 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimshady1999 View Post
It's nearly impossible to play too tight but you are definitely playing too loose.
Me? I didn't necessarily say I was raising those hands always b/c it's totally table dependent. Those are just my options: if its not a PP or AXs I never overlimp. At some tables raising KTdd in CO over limpers is profitable and some its a spew.
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Old 02-15-2014, 11:46 PM   #23
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

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Me? I didn't necessarily say I was raising those hands always b/c it's totally table dependent. Those are just my options: if its not a PP or AXs I never overlimp. At some tables raising KTdd in CO over limpers is profitable and some its a spew.
I was talking about beauv. You and I play pretty similar pre flop at least. If anything, it sounds like you don't play enough hands if you're only limpin in with suited Ax and PPs. I also limp in with 45s+, 64s+. Folding pretty much everything else unless I'm raising it though. Not a big fan of isolating with 87s, 97s type hands against multiple limpers though. Sure with JT+ or 77+, you can but I think 8 high is just too weak. You have little showdown value and when you hit, it's often middle pair no kicker or bottom pair. Against one limper, I'd isolate with SCs though
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Old 02-16-2014, 12:18 AM   #24
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Quote:
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I was talking about beauv. You and I play pretty similar pre flop at least. If anything, it sounds like you don't play enough hands if you're only limpin in with suited Ax and PPs. I also limp in with 45s+, 64s+. Folding pretty much everything else unless I'm raising it though. Not a big fan of isolating with 87s, 97s type hands against multiple limpers though. Sure with JT+ or 77+, you can but I think 8 high is just too weak. You have little showdown value and when you hit, it's often middle pair no kicker or bottom pair. Against one limper, I'd isolate with SCs though
I agree and 78s-9Ts, 8Ts are my rare exceptions. I have raised worse from time to time and once again it's very table dependent. I also have a very good image at all my games due to a year of playing nitty and a year of playing very tight. I do think 46s is a bit weak tho, I've taken nice pots from 47s type hands with better trips/flushes in limped pots many a time.
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Old 02-16-2014, 02:34 AM   #25
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Re: Overlimping hand range in btn/co

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If you can't isolate with weak Broadways at your table I would fold pre
I have to disagree here, if your isolating with QT, JT type hands over multiple limpers, i think that overlimping is far superior.
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