***IF this is too much for you to read and you wouldn't mind answering a quick question just look at the post below. That would help out a lot without even getting into all the rest of this*** Thanks!


I talk poker daily with a full time grinder who plays live $2-$5 but we both played mostly online until just a couple years ago. I am also starting to play some live cash games, some $1-$2 and some $2-$5. We are having something of a hard time deciding what we think is correct w regard to our over limping and iso raising ranges.

For simplicity let's assume this is the first hand we've seen after sitting in and playing $2-$5 and every player at the table has exactly $500 to start the hand.

Let's also assume we are in HJ position with no reads on anyone at the table.

If we have 2 limpers (pretty avg) and let's say the limpers are UTG+1 and low jack.

We have settled on these as far as basic rational for limp/iso raising;

We will tend to over limp with more speculative hands (small pairs and Axs as well as SC's, hands that will flop good equity draws and/or have good nut potential)
We will tend to iso raise hands that are reasonably likely to dominate a fair number of hands we would expect to limp and call our iso. We also, obv, want to avoid iso raising hands that will be dominated by our opponent's limp-call ranges.

So, we want to over limp small pair, Axs (where x is 2-8 ball park), suited connectors like 76s-T9s, weaker suited broadways like JTs/QTs, and maybe hands like J9s, Q9s, Q8s from button.

And, we want to iso raise hands like A9s+, ATo+, KT+, QJ, 99+ that we expect to dominate stuff like weak Axs, smaller pairs, T9s, JTs, and janky stuff like Q7s and J7s that weaker players like to limp in with.

First question;
does this seem to be, more or less, a reasonable way to decide between over limping and iso raising?

Second question:
We are both pretty undecided as far as a pure default strategy, if we ought to be more inclined to iso raise hands like QJ, KT, A9, 88, maybe even JT, or if we would be better off to just limp in and take a flop in position with these; KTs/QJs hands?

Third:
Lastly, we are having a tough time deciding with these cusp hands (QJs/o, KTs/o, JTs/o) if it makes more sense to iso raise the suited ones and over limp the off suit hands or do the exact opposite and iso the off suit and over limp the suited?
On one hand it seems kinda odd to limp one hand and raise another when the hand we limp is strictly > the one we raise with but we both feel like the suited hands will tend to play better in multiway pots and with a higher SPR and the off suite hands benefit more from the fold equity we generate by raising (playing better HU and don't lose as much value from creating a smaller SPR)?


Or, if that's all just a bit too much to answer then let me ask this, if you are in the exact spot I outlined above and you have the hand QJs, are you iso raising or over limping?

in case that's too much to read;
Late position,
100bb effective
live FR low stakes cash game
two limps to you and you are in HJ position.

What are you doing with QJs?
KTs?
QJo?
KTo?

Default in my game would be to raise each hand to $15 or so. If one of the limpers was super sticky (I have two in my game) I'd go to 20.

1) It seems fairly similar to my default strategy except that I'm always wary that in my casino there is a culture among regs that AQ and weaker are no good for raises in EP. This means at least some regs are limping AQ-AT KQ-KT QJ hands that I'm routinely iso raising recs and known regs with weak limping ranges. If I has no reads I'd tend to limp behind more than iso when someone who looks/behaves/chats like a reg limps in EP but be closer to your plan if everyone in EP looks recreational.

Like MIB211 I'm iso raising very large to try to actually get it HU.


2) KTo A9o JTo are pretty bad hand and I'd generally just fold them in all circumstances except opening from CO/BTN vs foldy blinds. 88/QJ I'm happy iso raising or limping behind.


3) I'm more likely to play the suited versions whatever line I take but I'm more likely to opt for the iso raise than a limp behind with the offsuit versions and I'm more likely to just fold an offsuit than limp behind with it. When I limp behind I'm looking to make a set, draw to the nut straight, a large flush or actually flop the nuts in a multiway pots. Therefore I'm more likely to isolate with ATo/54s/97s/KJo and limp behind with A9s/JTs/QTs/88.

No reads I call QJss and KTss and fold KTo and QJo.

If the limps are the kind of players that would have raised hands that dominate my holdings, I raise to iso their baby pockets and SCs.

If your villains are nittier post flop then I raise more preflop. However if they're good post flop then I will raise smaller to minimize the amount of money I can lose.

Right, that makes sense, but what about the same spot with ATo and ATs?
Let's just imagine a scenario where iso raising and over limping seem pretty close. In fact we think it's so close that we may as well limp some AT and iso raise some AT. Should we favor iso raising the suited and over calling the off suit AT in our range? Or should we probably use ATs to over limp and ATo to iso raise in that situation?

(Please ignore %'s in this analysis. For sake of argument just assume we live in a world where we will be dealt the same number of suited as off suit combos of exactly this one hand AT.)

I feel like ATs plays better multiway and prefers having some room to maneuver post flop but i feel like ATo really benefits from the added fold equity, would prob do better HU than MW, and doesn't mind reducing the SPR when called.
However
It seems pretty counter-intuitive to me that we should be more inclined to raise a hand that is strictly < some other hand that we feel would be better played as a call.

This is a very very interesting thread to me and I definitely want to delve deeper into some of the stuff in the OP because I have thought about a lot of similar things.

As to your most recent question, I ~never overlimp a hand like ATo, it is either a raise or a fold for me, but I would always favor raising the suited combos over the offsuit combos because they flop so much better and are able to be barreled much more effectively on many more boards.

I know this is not a popular opinion around here but it varies in every situation. How are the players behind you? Sticky? Tricky? Nitty? Who are the limpers? Sticky? Nitty? Tricky? Total fish?
Am I iso raising a weak fish who limped in? My range for raising is a lot wider. Are the limpers OMCs who never raise JJ or AK? Then my raising range is smaller.
Am I running well so players tend to be timid to play pots with me?

So, perhaps not very helpful but its mainly situational.
I'm never raising limpers with TJ off, KT off, mid As, not even suited As usually as I like to keep in possible smaller flush draws.

Yeah it is a strange one. It makes more sense when you think about it situationally and in a player specific fashion.

E.g. I'm MP with ATo or ATs facing two limps from loose passive ABC players who usually raise AJ+ themselves preflop, can fold their limps to large raises but flat some big raises with their favourite hands only to fit/fold the flop or call a lot of flops only to over fold turn. The players behind are similar but two in particular are notoriously sticky postflop and some wI'll limp behind wit dominating hands.

Here I'm going to consider flatting ATs for the chance to make a monster and stack one or more players postflop but mostly play for a small pot or give up with 1pair hands multiway.

With ATo I'm inclined to raise big to pick up the pot and be seen being aggressive as plan A but plan B is to isolate one of the limpers and then cbet/barrel him off his hand and pick up a decent sized pot.

So really when I raise I'm not bothered about the hand I have as long as I'm not wasting a nut making hand I want to limp behind. I don't want to be overdoing my exploitative iso raising so I won't use ATC, just the best hands I'm not prepared to overlimp with.

So A6o and 85s aren't great hands and don't deserve to be raised for value or over limped to try to drag down a monster pot at showdown. Obviously both would do for an exploitative raise vs player who over folds postflop. ATo is confusing because maybe it does have value vs V's limp/call range, maybe it doesn't.

I don't let that worry me too much. I start off thinking AJo is my smallest ace that I can value raise and therefore I have to be pretty careful with AT and below when I make top pair not to go crazy and value own myself while recognising I can likely get a street or two of value in the right spots. Then I'll adjust my value range based on exactly how loosely this particular V calls me down.

Raise with ATo, Call with ATs

Not really.

If we're raising as a bluff (ie to get better hands to fold and to win the pot right now) we don't care at all what our cards are.

The reason we chose to bluff with a hand like ATo is two fold:
- our holding blocks AA and TT and AK hands that would call our raise
- if we are called we have some equity

The reason we might call ATs and raise ATo is because ATo will be more likely to miss and not have a lot of equity post flop. With ATs we're more likely to connect in a way that will let us bet (as a semi-bluff perhaps) after the flop and take down a larger pot later.

OK, i get what you are saying, makes sense. We want to use the best hands we don't feel we can profitably call to bluff raise with and so, with that in mind, it should not feel so counter-intuitive to call ATs and raise ATo.
Accept that; I'm not at all thinking about raising ATo hoping to get better hands to fold. In other words, I'm not bluffing I'm value betting.

I believe most of the players in my $2-$5 pool and prob most players in "the" $2-$5 player pool will Raise or Iso not limp or over limp AJ+. I aslo don't expect these players to limp fold anything that AT beats (maybe occasional small PP but that's not exactly like "folding better").

I am iso raising in these games very value heavy hoping to exploit the player pools (maybe main) mistake propensity of calling too wide pre-flop.

I expect players to limp in with hands like JTs, QT, KTs, T9s, and maybe get sticky facing an iso raise. I expect my AT (when called) to be doimatING far more often than dominatED.

That's one of my main reasons for isolating with any hand at all, domination value.

That said,
thoughts?


(And thank you one and all for the great conversation and thoughtful/thought provoking responses.)

I wouldnt say FAR more often. People in llsnl limpcall pretty strong hands. Also i dont wana get.blown off A10ss by a 3! Behind, so i like limping it behind.

so,..
yeah.

I think a lot of what we are talking about here comes down to a few things:

1) do we think we should mostly iso raise big cards and medium to big pocket pairs because they dominate limp-calls more often than they are dominated by limp call ranges, they flop good but not nutted value hands relatviely often (prefer HU) and they don't mind reducing SPR, they c-bet and barrel pretty well, and don't like to go MW to the flop. and do we think we ought to tend to over limp with more speculative hands that get a lot of their value from implied odds and don't mind multiple opponents and prefer a larger SPR??

2) What do we think most players in these games will be limping in with and calling an iso with?

3) based on these assumptions where ought we tend to draw the line on over limp/iso-raising (should we look to iso raise vs 2 limpers from CO position with QJs? What about ATs?).

and, what I'm really interested to get feedback on; Can it make sense to tend to over limp the suited version of a given hand and yet iso raise the off suit version of the same exact hand in the same exact spot?



I TYPICALLY (right or wrong I'm really not sure at all) go for the iso in a lot of spots with hands like KJo and ATo but would over limp in the exact same spot with ATs and KJs. There is something so strange feeling about using one hand to value raise (KJo) in a spot where I would not value raise a hand that is strictly better in the same spot (KJs). Or ATo/ATs

I even find my instincts typing me toward iso raising QJo in late position against a single limper but just over limping QJs in the same exact spot, not really minding if the SB completes and the BB knocks the table when I have the button, for instance, and the CO open limps.