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Out of order donk bet messes up action Out of order donk bet messes up action

08-21-2014 , 08:34 PM
Playing 2/5. Typical mix table

V1. Run of the mill donk fish. Donks small on flop a lot. Tends to under bet when he does have it. On second buy in for $500 but has hit two pair a couple of times on this buy in. $700

V2. Good regular. TAG in EP, LAG in LP. We don't have much history because we play different schedules but we recognize each other. $1100

V3. Unknown villain. Several limp/calls preflop and not much action post but has not been at table long. $850

Hero. Probably look nitty because card dead, not a lot of action in several hours. $950

V1 limps UTG
V2 raises to $25 in EP
V3 calls in MP
Hero calls with TsTd in BB.
V1 calls.

Pot is $102
Flop is KcTh3c

Preflop I decide to set mine rather then 3 bet. I would have to blast this to get much FE, because V1 and V3 are going to call wide and V2's range is strong. Flop is too wet to check. While hero is deciding how much to lead into pot, V1 donks out of turn for $25. V2 is grabbing a chip to call as Hero interrupts the action and V1's bet is pushed back. Now what?
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote
08-21-2014 , 08:40 PM
I'd move ahead as if it didn't happen, it's a wet flop and we're likely ahead and going to get calls anyway if they have anything, it's 4 ways. Someone probably has a decent piece of that flop. I'd bet $85.
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote
08-21-2014 , 08:53 PM
Isnt his bet binding if you check? I would wind up a check raise.

If not he kind of screwed you because your donk looks stronger, but I agree above, $85.
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote
08-21-2014 , 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss
Isnt his bet binding if you check? I would wind up a check raise.
House rules apply. Many rooms would rule the bet stands, but it isn't unanimous. But yeah, bet what you were going to bet anyway as played.
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote
08-21-2014 , 09:19 PM
Since you protected your action quickly, action returns to you and the 25 comes back. RRoP says that if you check, the $25 is binding, but if you bet in turn he gets to reconsider his action and can call, raise, or fold. As usual, the above is subject to variation of house rules. Many places, for instance, may commit the $25 to the pot even if you bet and he decides to fold.

Obviously, the pro move here is to check/raise full pot.
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote
08-21-2014 , 09:50 PM
The casino where I play --- If an out of turn action happens, that action is binding unless the action in front changes.

For example, if I'm chopping out $55, and someone in LP bets $25, that stands as long as I bet $25 or check.
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote
08-21-2014 , 10:58 PM
Hate when this happens b/c you can't help but look stronger than you would have otherwise. Like others have said the best move probably would have been to just let it play out and then c/r big when it's back to you. Kind of hard to do in the moment though when you flop huge and get skipped.
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote
08-22-2014 , 04:18 AM
I check/raise here but only because the V that donked out of turn is the big donk. Check raising to about 4/5 pot. If it was V2 that donked out of turn I'd lead out.
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote
08-22-2014 , 04:18 AM
HH is the nuts

i check and let the action continue.

You now have a guarantee it will not get checked through and also know how all three opponents feel about their hands on the flop. just from that info alone i would already range v2 to only jj qq aj or aq if he was going to just call the 25 after EP raise. C/R like you were just raising on the button
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote
08-22-2014 , 10:34 AM
That's actually great for you IMO...action is binding if it remains unchanged (unless your house rules stipulate differently). Let the action go, make a big check-raise around pot size.

Btw...if you change the action now and bet out...might send off alarm bells to villains and will lose value on this hand.
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote
08-22-2014 , 02:33 PM
I might bet $25 and see what happens. These guys might bomb it, and I'd bomb them right back.

I think betting into them now might be too strong, but that's the only other option to me. I think the check/raise is even stronger, but you get an extra $50, at least.
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote
08-22-2014 , 03:00 PM
At the time I considered both options bad and I didn't want to spend too much time holding up the action more. After thinking about it later I still think they both end up costing me money. If I check/raise the small donk bet costs me money. If V1 had not donked, V2 is almost sure to c-bet for $60 plus on that board. If I lead into V1's donk it looks strong and I may get nothing at all.

I went with the check/raise just because V1 is forced to make his donk bet so I'm sure to get at least some money in the pot. In retrospect I think leading here is actually better. Go big, something like $85, where it looks like I'm trying to keep anybody from drawing cheaply. If I'm lucky somebody will have a big hand or good draw and flat/raise, otherwise I don't think there is any way to make any real money here because anything I do looks strong.
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote
08-22-2014 , 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ
At the time I considered both options bad and I didn't want to spend too much time holding up the action more. After thinking about it later I still think they both end up costing me money. If I check/raise the small donk bet costs me money. If V1 had not donked, V2 is almost sure to c-bet for $60 plus on that board. If I lead into V1's donk it looks strong and I may get nothing at all.
Second consideration is more important than the first.

It's possible either or both Vs will interpret your x/r as an attempt to buy the pot (given you knew the first one's bet was going to be binding) and either reraise or flat you and try to take it away later. Worst case scenario if you x/r is you take down $50 more than you were very likely to take down by betting in front of that much strength anyway.

Check-raise is the obvious and correct play here IMO.
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote
08-22-2014 , 07:02 PM
One day you will have put in enough hours where you will instantly calculate this entire scenario in your head and have the quick reaction to say nothing during the initial out of turn donk + almost call.

As played whatever you do looks hella strong bc you interrupted action.
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote
08-22-2014 , 08:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ
At the time I considered both options bad and I didn't want to spend too much time holding up the action more. After thinking about it later I still think they both end up costing me money. If I check/raise the small donk bet costs me money. If V1 had not donked, V2 is almost sure to c-bet for $60 plus on that board. If I lead into V1's donk it looks strong and I may get nothing at all.

I went with the check/raise just because V1 is forced to make his donk bet so I'm sure to get at least some money in the pot. In retrospect I think leading here is actually better. Go big, something like $85, where it looks like I'm trying to keep anybody from drawing cheaply. If I'm lucky somebody will have a big hand or good draw and flat/raise, otherwise I don't think there is any way to make any real money here because anything I do looks strong.
As noted by many so far, but still worth clarifying, the rule for out of turn action is entirely house based. Make sure you know what the rule is at the place you're playing. So I think it's important to clairfy what the rule was in the OP because different rules would grossly change what the best play is.

The most common rule is that the out of turn action is binding if the people acting correctly in turn do not change the action before getting to the out of turn bettor. And that appears to be the rule here.

But I've seen places (and not just small hodunk casinos either, big card rooms) that have vastly different rules. Poto in Milwaukee, for example, had a rule that the player who bets out of turn FORFEITS his right to bet; as in, if Hero checks, V1 is FORCED to check. If Hero bets, V1 is FORCED to either call or fold, he cannot raise. It's dumb, but it was their rule when I play there.

I've seen houses where the rule is no punishment, so if Hero checks, V1 is free to do whatever he wants. Allows for gross angles obviously. And I've seen a few other rules from other places as well, but I don't want to turn this into a post about all the different rules for out of turn betting that are out there.

Since here we've got the more common rule, x/r doesn't look nearly as strong as you claim. I'd argue donking big at this point actually looks FAR stronger, not only is it a donk-bet at this point, now it's also a donk-bet INTO a player who has shown a desire to bet (albeit small). If now you lead out $65 or whatever, allowing the player who bet $25 to take his bet back, I think that APPEARS to be insanely strong.

This is one of the few areas where you can actually throw a live reverse tell to hide strength, IMO. Acting VERY casual about the out of turn bet and a little confused about it can sometimes hide your strength when you do x/r. If, when the dealer clarifies the action is on you, you then say something like "well, I'll check to the guy over there who seems eager to bet!" in a joking/laughing manner, and then V1 bets and V2 calls, it may make your x/r bomb look like you're now just trying to steal it. We're talking about live poker here. There's a good chance either V1 or V2 is dumb enough to interpret this play as a straight steal of the pot.

Sure, there's a chance that the out of action turn killed your action entirely, and that either play at this point won't get nearly as much action as you would have gotten without the out of turn action interfering. But once the out of turn bet occured, now the casual x/r has a far higher chance of getting paid off. Plus if neither play works, at least the x/r takes down $50 extra, as Mook pointed out. So it's clearly the better play of the two options. And that's all we can do at this point.
Out of order donk bet messes up action Quote

      
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