... is obv a bad idea for multiple reasons at low stakes. A good buddy of mine beats 1/2 at a decent clip but opens 78s UTG without much thought. We basically had an argument over this and he remains unswayed.

Just to reinforce my belief on this subject, would you guys mind listing reasons for me why it is generally unprofitable to raise sc's OOP at a 9-10 handed table? I think I know most/all of the reasons why, but maybe I am missing something as well if I can't even convince someone else that it's unprofitable long term.

(This is just one player I'm talking strategy to, I very rarely talk strategy to people within the casino I go to so don't get on your high horse and tell me it's bad to teach people how to play )

Usually when you hit the flop with suited connectors it's a weak pair or a draw, neither of which plays well out of position in a raised pot. At a typical 1/2 game you're not going to have the fold equity you need to raise these hands in early position and don't really have much need for deception anyway.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...eware-1213848/

I could see certain tables where it could be profitable (deep stacked, loose passive table where there is little preflop three betting, or, conversely, super weak tight tables where even a single raise from UTG is getting a lot of respect), but, I think that overall it's a leak.

- Most of the time you're going to flop a marginal hand oop against multiple opponents. When you're ahead, it's going to be hard to maximize value b/c you're oop, and when you're behind you don't hav e as much of a chance to take free cards to draw at your hand.

Basically, if you have a huge skill edge and stacks are deep you might be able to get away with it, but it seems unnecessary to press such a small edge when there are so many huge edges in other spots.

HOC vol 1 recommends raising sc's for balance. So its no real argument to be won op. Let your friend play his way and you play your way.

Have you seen some of the strategies that win in llsnl. A plethora of leaks. Its fine because the competition is so bad. It really depends on personal comfort.

One man's leak is another man's winning strategy.

there's so many reasons this is bad at live 1/2nl at a 9/T handed table

Haha, I've raised 47o and probably worse UTG (2/5NL 200+BB only). Ok, that's probably a leak... 78s I'll open about 30-50% of the time, and just fold the rest. It really depends on whether I'm at a good table to barrel (or possibly c/r bluff), how strong my reads are at the table, and if my image is ok.

The value in raising SCs from EP is for balance reasons and also if you have the image and post flop skills to take down pots.

Unfortunately, in LLSNL you have virtually ZERO FOLD EQUITY vs many of your villains. Once a LLSNL player calls you on a dry flop, he is rarely if ever folding. Thus, the value in raising is in having hands that have value and not in hands in which you NEED fold equity in which to be profitable.

The only way raising w SCs is profitable in LLSNL is if you are at a deep (200bb+) table vs fit-n-fold calling stations that will stack off if you hit gin. But most LLSNL games have way too many short stackers and nits at the table for it to be profitable.

WHat is likely is that your friend is just running good w raising w SCs in EP. Its not unheard of in poker to go on a 2000 hand heater. In live play, since we are dealt 30 hands an hour, that means you can go on 70hr+ streak playing badly but winning. If you played 5 hr sessions, that is fourteen days worth of run good. If you play 2 days a week that is seven weeks worth of rungood. If you mix in those fourteen days with fourteen normal days and combine that with human memory (ie human memory is biased and atrocious) then you are talking about 14 weeks worth of good results in which you only remember your wins and not your loses and thus convince yourself that raising w SCs from EP is profitable... WHen in reality its not.

Whether or not you open 98s UTG depends on what you can hope to accomplish with it. If I'm 200bb deep with a fish in the BB or something, I'll open wide UTG all day. If the table is a passive donkfest with juicy stacks, even behind me, I will play 98s all day.

Out of position against a field of TAGs, or short fish, or 100bb tight-passive players, I will bail with 98s UTG. Why? Because it doesn't put me in enough good situations post-flop.

Having 8 players yet to act, 6 of whom play after you on the later streets, is a really big deal, and that lack of information makes putting money in the pot extremelly risky. That's why you usually want a strong hand, even playing against fish. That said, there's a time and a place for it.

Your friend is probably leaking massively with these hands, but that's ok. Just sit to his left.

Your friend has a large leak, he is incorrect on this subject

What did the argument consist of?

What it like this: I'm making money playing suited connectors, no you aren't, yes I am, ...

What was his plan to make profit on various flops?

I doubt his friend tracks result over anything resembling a decent sample size

opening stuff like 57s/etc will probably be a leak at full ring NL. 6 handed its fine, but not always.

Per usual dgi with a great post.

I will open a small percentage for balancing when the game is deep especially at tables where only 1-2 players will call to see a flop and there is very few 3betting.

I played a 6 handed 2/5 last week where it was insanely unprofitable to not open up with SCs.

If the table is weak and there's a fish in the blinds, I'll open 75s from everywhere.

I fold b/c we have 8 high and we're utg

Small cards make small flushes, small straights, small trips, small 2 pair, and worthless 1 pair. I'm putting no high card value and small full houses in a separate sentence b/c they are very minor considerations.

So let's take a look (I'm not mentioning the fact that we're oop in any of this b/c it would get redundant quickly, but just remember we're oop which compounds all of these issues):

1. Small flushes. People get very scared when there is 3 of a suit on board and it freezes them if they don't have a flush. This means we tend to only get heavy action from other flushes. In order for us to have the higher flush both of our opponents cards have to be 6 or lower (remember, we have the 7 also). There are way more combos of higher flushes as they only need to have 1 flush card higher than us and can have 1 lower. Fish call with Axs, Kxs, Qxs, Jxs, even Txs religiously. They might pitch 9xs or worse for a raise, most of which are the hands we need them to have.

2. Small straights. If we have the top end of the straight then that means there are all low cards on board, which means no one made a pair or 2 with their 2 broadways and can pay us off. If there are a few higher cards out there that give people some pair/2 pair opportunities with their high cards it also creates higher straight possibilities and there are 16 combos for every possible straight and only 9 combos for every possible 2 pair.

3. Small trips. Like flushes, trips are another hand staring fish right in their face so they fear it and it's hard to get paid off by worse. When we have trips and face heavy action our kicker is irrelevant as it will often be counterfeited so even when we have the better kicker (someone playing 86, 76, or weaker which isn't nearly as likely) we chop. When someone has a better kicker we get stacked.

4. Small 2 pair. When we make 2 pair there necessarily has to be a str8 draw on board and will very likely be possible straights by the river. When we have 2 pair there are at least 3 possible open enders. Most of the time there is going to be a couple higher cards on board threatening a higher 2 pair. There aren't going to be many people making a smaller 2 pair than ours so our value really just comes from top pair. Thus our small 2 pair is only a little better than tptk. It's kind of like an overpair which is good hu, but goes down in value quickly with each caller. Also, we are easily counterfeited when the board pairs and someone has a pair of 9s or higher

5. Our 1 pair hands are worthless, pretty obvious. We have a bad kicker and never have top pair otr unless there is a 4str8 on board

Oh yeah, and big pairs are a hand we would like to see a flop against, but they're 3 betting us and forcing us to fold

His argument mostly consisted of, "everyone else is bad postflop, my hand will be disguised when I hit, and if the flop is dry I can cbet and TID even if it's 3-4 way"

Which might sound good in theory, but in actuality.... meh, especially at live 9-10 handed tables full of the usual 100bbish bad regs/fish, I believe you just end up needlessly giving away more money than you gain longterm thinking this way. Conversely I agree with the other poster that in 6max online, opening sc's UTG was a lot more rational.

That said, in live games I've been guilty of folding sc's in EP without much thought when there are situations where it might be profitable; table is deeper, fish is in the blinds, etc.

That type of hand won't get you in trouble. I would rather open that hand up other the normal sc's people like, 76s,87s and 98.

The problem with 76s,87s and 98s: your average opponents play QJ, KQ and AK. So I wouldn't advise anyone to open those in ep. The only sc I would open up is 109s and I'm not worried about A10 because I hold a blocker to that hand.

Your advice is good if people can understand your post. But advocating opening up 75s a noob will read this thread and be like I can open up any sc and that's just not the point.

I like 75s, just like 85s or 97s.

Huh? Why will 75 suited get you in less trouble than 76 suited? I understand that the straight is hidden a little better, so you are more likely to make money with 75, but why will you get in less trouble?

Yeah, this.

The table can be weak in a variety of different ways for suited connectors to be profitable. I don't mind if they are weak/tight fit or fold guys or loose passive stations; you can profit from either type.

The SCs, I raise in EP are 75, 76, 86, 87, T8, t9, JT.

I usually skip 98 because I am irrationally afraid of a TJQ flop, and I usually, but not always, fold QJ because I don't trust myself to het away from it cheaply.

Playing these hands requires a pretty big skill edge. It's definitely not ABC play.

You probably shouldn't play them at live low stakes unless you find yourself in a game you can crush. For example, maybe you find yourself at your dream table on occasion, or maybe BR considerations have you playing below the highest stakes you can beat.

I thought I explained it clearly in my post. One of the straights those hands make are bottom end straights. Those are very hard to fold oop. 76: 1098, 87:J109, 98: QJ10. I would rather open 109 because we have a blocker to A10 on a KQJ board. The single or double gapper connectors are easier to play oop, when you do hit. That's not why we play them but you are gladly to get it in with those straights.

I'm in love with 85s and 97s I will do anything with those hands including 3bets. I also like 75s,63s as well. But won't 3bet those hands.

so 75 can't make the bottom end of a straight? 97 can't? that's moronic thinking. seriously. flop comes 689 and you think 57 can't lose to 710? just because 76 can lose to QJ on 8910? you going broke every time you flop that end of a straight? there's a reason they call it the idiot end of a straight - only an idiot goes broke there.

I will just rather stay away from those hands. Yes, 75 can flop a bottom straight I never said it couldn't. But you hold a blocker to the hand that usually beats you which is my whole point.