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Old 10-03-2018, 09:54 PM   #176
MikeStarr
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

I just reread my OP and youre right. I did say hes a Euro kid who never limps. My bad.

If someone described a player as a Euro kid, I would assume hes much more aggro than this guy is. Again, my bad.

I played 2 1/2 hrs with the dude. Thats what? 70-80 hands. He raised about 10-11 times. For all I know he couldve card dead and been a 25/25 type player. You cant really expect me to have solid reads on the guy in 2 1/2 hrs.

He raised about 10-11 times. He never seemed to be out of line. He folded a lot post flop. He never got to showdown. There's no much info to go on.

I guess I shouldnt have ever said he was a Euro kid because it influences everything. Hes just a quiet guy who I heard speak one time and he had an accent. That's all.

As for the JTs/ AJs argument. I would absolutely rather defend against a 3 bet with JTs than AJs.
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:56 PM   #177
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
It seemed to me that you are checking flop here 100% of the time, a clear mistake given that you are in position as the aggressor with a stronger range especially when you are playing vs a "solid player" that doesn't get out of line. Seems like you are not taking the line that will maximise your EV, so seems like a mistake to me.

I dont know what gave you the idea that I check the flop 100% of the time
Your first post when you stated that you do not beat anything gave me the idea that you are checking 100% of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Yes I am going to critique your play, that is the point of posting a HH I believe... I am open to alternative lines, just don't understand why you state that you are, when all evidence points towards you not being open to an alternative line. All you do is defend your line and often times have contradicting arguments.

State your opinions in a way just like you would if we were talking in real life instead of being condescending and a smart ass and the conversation goes much smoother.
I apologise m8, just got a bit impatient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Additionally, I find that taking aggressive lines will generally make you much tougher to read rather than passive ones.

Aggressive lines are more profitable in general and trust me, I am very aggressive in a lot of situations. I dont know that being aggro makes you harder to read though.
Just got this one thread of info on you that lead me to believe you do not play aggressive poker. I understand that it's one hand and does not really mean anything but my read comes from your mentality. The mentality of putting villain on hands that have you beat rather than thinking about his entire range and how you can extract value from a large % of that range. J74 is a pretty harmless flop but you automatically assume that you beat nothing. I find this mentality detrimental to a players game. When I have QQ and the flop comes J74, I am thinking about all the Jx, 7x, 56-T9s that V could potentially have in his range and will call my flop bet. When the T peels OTT I think about the gutshots that that now also have a pair or the pairs that now have a gutshot and will probably call another bet. I will also be thrilled as I probably overbluff this spot but happen to have value this time. I will be betting big here. I don't auto-think, OMG T peeled now I lose to TT, 89s, and JTs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
And I don't really care about the river by now. I am more interested on why you think checking flop is not a mistake, and your thoughts on your turn line. Betting $50 into $120? Seems like an awful sizing to use with both value and draws IMO.

Ive given my reasons for checking the flop already. On the turn when he checked to me again, I didnt think he had anything. What hand plays preflop like this and checks to me twice? I put him on AK/AQ at that point and made a small bet that I thought he might call with overs and a gutshot. AK had 8 outs and AQ had 7 outs so I made a small bet that I thought he might call

He needed 23% equity to call that bet so he would be making a mistake to call. A slightly larger bet would be good also IMO. His river lead out of nowhere is really the only thing I find all that interesting about this hand.
What about implied odds of calling with AK/AQ? What about calling the turn with these hands and bluffing river on a straightening card like 8 or 9? With that much money behind, I'm not folding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
The dynamics of this hand are far different to the original post. V is aggro, so he will probably overbluff that spot. V is in the BB, his range will be a lot wider. Your range is probably a bit wider from MP.

I would also take the line you took from time to time vs an aggro.

And you are being resulted oriented, like you have been before. You could have also potentially gained a lot more if you bet the flop and V check-raised you and fired off his entire stack on a stone-cold bluff and you end up calling.

If villain has the balls to check raise the flop in my KJ hand with a hand worse than mine, he can have the pot. Im not calling a check raise on that flop. There may be 1% of players that Ive played with that make moves like that.
Ok this was a slightly extreme although when a good aggro regular check/raises me on a flop this dry I don't see myself folding the flop. But what you stated is clearly results oriented as maybe you check back the flop and don't allow yourself to get three streets from a dominated Kx in a similar scenario.
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:50 PM   #178
Shai Hulud
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
..
I misread the part about limping. I thought you said 16% when he doesn't limp. Sorry. But you are backpedaling about the player's description and arbitrarily thinking he won't open AJs or KJs or QJs or JTs (why??)

I agree a 16/16 player is a TAG. But that's an average and in fact about what I average if we're talking VPIP/PFR. And I open about 10% UTG. There is no contradiction. I don't get how you label him a 16/16 TAG but think he's opening like 3 to 4 percent UTG. That is a nit opening range and what I focused on in my response since we've been talking about what a solid TAG who never limps would open UTG not what his total stats are.

Besides, this stuff is new information. All we know is your initial read. And you seem to be missing the point about your read being accurate. Of course over 80 hands you can't have anywhere close to a perfect read. You make the best guess you can. Your educated guess was presented as this guy being a solid ABC TAG. To me that means you think he's a TAG who wins something like 6+ BB/hr. A pro basically, but not necessarily a crusher. And you form your ranges for this hand based on that, not from information you've gained three days later. Any information gained after the hand is irrelevant to your evaluation of this hand.p Thinking otherwise is being results oriented.

And the open range I gave is very standard UTG TAG opening range. I cited two sources of similar ranges from very credible expert sources, CLP and Janda. Here is another (IMO slightly less credible) from Jonathan Little's Small Stakes Poker Cash Games book

22+, AJs+, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, AQo+ (10.1%)

The composition is a little different and Little describes it as overly tight, but the % is similar. Little focuses on hands that are easy to play.

And another from Ed Miller in The Course

22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AQo+ (14.3%)

I think this is a bit too loose except in very tight games, but the point is every single source I have checked written for low stakes cash games has suggested UTG opens of 9 to 14 percent. That's pretty much the definition of "standard".

A solid TAG should indeed be opening *something like* what I posted in a 200BB game, and I haven't seen any logical refutation of this from anyone, just comments about how it's way too loose and absurd hyperbole that I better bring 10 buyins even though I've been using this range (I deviate based on table but it's my average more or less) averaging over 10BB/HR for the 1500 or so hours I've accumulated since moving here.
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:50 AM   #179
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

Raise the river you fish. 😘
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:57 AM   #180
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

Meanwhile just downbet flop and even the bad turn, say, 50/90 to make some money from heroing pairs, then aim to ck back riv.
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Old 10-04-2018, 01:40 AM   #181
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Ive flatted raises with big pairs plenty of times, but I think its a mistake to do it in this spot with so many people behind me that I have every reason to believe are coming in. I see good strong winning players make moves that I think are mistakes quite often, but when they are winning players I try to figure out why they did it to see if it makes sense to me. Maybe I can add those plays to my arsenal. Ive added a lot of plays this way over the last 3 years and my results have increased dramatically.

Checking the flop is not a mistake. Its just a non standard play to mix in from time to time. I would bet the flop most of the time but not every time. If I had bet the flop and he folded (which happens all the time) I wouldnt have posted the hand. It wouldnt have been very interesting now would it?

So you are critiquing my play and it seems stupid to you, but you should be opening your mind to alternative lines that can make you much tougher to read and increase your win rate. My mistake in this hand was folding the river after taking an alternative line. If anyone is counting thats the 7th time I said the river was a mistake.


Let me give you another example hand

I open $20 in MP KJ. An aggro guy calls in the BB

Flop ($40) K64. He checks. I check back. If I posted this hand and didnt bet the flop people's head would explode. (OMG you have TP you have to bet)

Turn ($40) 3. He leads $50. I call
River ($140) 2. He bets $125. I tank for a while and then call.

He had QJ. I made an extra $175 by checking the flop and underepping my hand. Could I have gotten outdrawn by doing that? Of course. He couldve had 33 or 5x or a few other hands that outdrew me

My point is that there are plenty of ways to make money playing poker. If I posted this KJ hand, this same type of argument wouldve broken out. If I had bet the flop in this KJ kand which I would do 75% of the time, he wouldve check/folded and I wouldnt have posted the hand.
This example is different. The BB is an aggro player, and checking back to induce is perfectly fine as an exploitative play and to deviate from "standard" play. This hand is not the same. There is literally no valid reason to check flop in this HH.
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Old 10-04-2018, 08:41 AM   #182
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
Meanwhile just downbet flop and even the bad turn, say, 50/90 to make some money from heroing pairs, then aim to ck back riv.
This would probably be pretty close to what I do most of the time.
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Old 10-04-2018, 08:57 AM   #183
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
I misread the part about limping. I thought you said 16% when he doesn't limp. Sorry. But you are backpedaling about the player's description and arbitrarily thinking he won't open AJs or KJs or QJs or JTs (why??)

I agree a 16/16 player is a TAG. But that's an average and in fact about what I average if we're talking VPIP/PFR. And I open about 10% UTG. There is no contradiction. I don't get how you label him a 16/16 TAG but think he's opening like 3 to 4 percent UTG. That is a nit opening range and what I focused on in my response since we've been talking about what a solid TAG who never limps would open UTG not what his total stats are.

Besides, this stuff is new information. All we know is your initial read. And you seem to be missing the point about your read being accurate. Of course over 80 hands you can't have anywhere close to a perfect read. You make the best guess you can. Your educated guess was presented as this guy being a solid ABC TAG. To me that means you think he's a TAG who wins something like 6+ BB/hr. A pro basically, but not necessarily a crusher. And you form your ranges for this hand based on that, not from information you've gained three days later. Any information gained after the hand is irrelevant to your evaluation of this hand.p Thinking otherwise is being results oriented.

And the open range I gave is very standard UTG TAG opening range. I cited two sources of similar ranges from very credible expert sources, CLP and Janda. Here is another (IMO slightly less credible) from Jonathan Little's Small Stakes Poker Cash Games book

22+, AJs+, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, AQo+ (10.1%)

The composition is a little different and Little describes it as overly tight, but the % is similar. Little focuses on hands that are easy to play.

And another from Ed Miller in The Course

22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AQo+ (14.3%)

I think this is a bit too loose except in very tight games, but the point is every single source I have checked written for low stakes cash games has suggested UTG opens of 9 to 14 percent. That's pretty much the definition of "standard".

A solid TAG should indeed be opening *something like* what I posted in a 200BB game, and I haven't seen any logical refutation of this from anyone, just comments about how it's way too loose and absurd hyperbole that I better bring 10 buyins even though I've been using this range (I deviate based on table but it's my average more or less) averaging over 10BB/HR for the 1500 or so hours I've accumulated since moving here.
I hate when people tell me something wont work because lots of what they tell me wont work, does work for me all the time. But, I dont see any way raising this range is profitable from UTG in a full ring game. It certainly isnt what Id call a TAG. Thats LAGgy as hell. If its working for you, then I applaud you, but if you come to my table, I will 3 bet the living hell out of you. I'll 3 bet you lite constantly, but even with standard players you should be getting 3 bet way too often.

Ive seen guys come and go playing like that but not one has lasted more than a month or 2 in my room. I have to assume its because they aren't winning. Most of them came from the online 6 max games and that amount of preflop aggression just doesnt work live.

If youre raising 14% UTG, what are you raising in LP? 35%?
A player like that must be playing like 30/25 or maybe higher. I only know one guy who plays like that who I think is a winner, but its tough to tell because his stack is up and down so much and he tops up so often that theres no way to know if hes winning or losing. This guy plays very well post flop and is tough to play against so he probably does win but I doubt many people can do it.

When people talk about needing crazy large sample sizes to determine win rates or when they talk about 8-10 buy in downswings being common occurrances, I always laugh. But playing like this Im sure those things are true.

Again, I hate when people say something wont work so maybe I open up even more in EP, but I definitely think youre overdoing it.

I raise a suited small Ace occasionally if the table is tight or something like 86s now and then but I cant see that as standard at all.

Maybe Ill actually read a book and see if it can change my mind. Whats the name of Little's book that you are talking about?

Last edited by MikeStarr; 10-04-2018 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 10-04-2018, 09:07 AM   #184
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by mrdestiny View Post
Your first post when you stated that you do not beat anything gave me the idea that you are checking 100% of the time.



I apologise m8, just got a bit impatient.



Just got this one thread of info on you that lead me to believe you do not play aggressive poker. I understand that it's one hand and does not really mean anything but my read comes from your mentality. The mentality of putting villain on hands that have you beat rather than thinking about his entire range and how you can extract value from a large % of that range. J74 is a pretty harmless flop but you automatically assume that you beat nothing. I find this mentality detrimental to a players game. When I have QQ and the flop comes J74, I am thinking about all the Jx, 7x, 56-T9s that V could potentially have in his range and will call my flop bet. When the T peels OTT I think about the gutshots that that now also have a pair or the pairs that now have a gutshot and will probably call another bet. I will also be thrilled as I probably overbluff this spot but happen to have value this time. I will be betting big here. I don't auto-think, OMG T peeled now I lose to TT, 89s, and JTs.



What about implied odds of calling with AK/AQ? What about calling the turn with these hands and bluffing river on a straightening card like 8 or 9? With that much money behind, I'm not folding.



Ok this was a slightly extreme although when a good aggro regular check/raises me on a flop this dry I don't see myself folding the flop. But what you stated is clearly results oriented as maybe you check back the flop and don't allow yourself to get three streets from a dominated Kx in a similar scenario.
I had KJ. Not AK. How often am I getting 3 streets from a guy and he has KT or less in a raised pot? Just about never. I see people try it and I watch them go down in flames all the time.

Lots of people would say raising KJ from MP at all is -EV because you get called by dominated hands too often. There's no way you can get 3 streets long term.

The better plan is to plan in advance to get 2 streets with TP and then depending on the villain figure out which 2 streets is best. If he chases draws, bet the flop and turn. If he is more likely to have middle pair and think its good if you check the flop, then bet the turn and river.

This particular villain is aggro enough that I know if I check a Kxx flop he will assume I dont have a King and try to barrel me off of QQ-TT for 2 streets.
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Old 10-04-2018, 09:31 AM   #185
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
I hate when people tell me something wont work because lots of what they tell me wont work, does work for me all the time. But, I dont see any way raising this range is profitable from UTG in a full ring game. It certainly isnt what Id call a TAG. Thats LAGgy as hell. If its working for you, then I applaud you, but if you come to my table, I will 3 bet the living hell out of you. I'll 3 bet you lite constantly, but even with standard players you should be getting 3 bet way too often.

Ive seen guys come and go playing like that but not one has lasted more than a month or 2 in my room. I have to assume its because they aren't winning. Most of them came from the online 6 max games and that amount of preflop aggression just doesnt work live.

If youre raising 14% UTG, what are you raising in LP? 35%?
A player like that must be playing like 30/25 or maybe higher. I only know one guy who plays like that who I think is a winner, but its tough to tell because his stack is up and down so much and he tops up so often that theres no way to know if hes winning or losing. This guy plays very well post flop and is tough to play against so he probably does win but I doubt many people can do it.

When people talk about needing crazy large sample sizes to determine win rates or when they talk about 8-10 buy in downswings being common occurrances, I always laugh. But playing like this Im sure those things are true.

Again, I hate when people say something wont work so maybe I open up even more in EP, but I definitely think youre overdoing it.

I raise a suited small Ace occasionally if the table is tight or something like 86s now and then but I cant see that as standard at all.

Maybe Ill actually read a book and see if it can change my mind. Whats the name of Little's book that you are talking about?
In sentence 2 you do what you say you hate people doing in sentence 1.

I use Ed Miller's range at lots of tables. I win with this range. It could be I'd win more if I tighten up. idk. Always reassessing.

And yes, if somebody starts abusing me with the 3bets, I adjust. No biggie. It's part of why 3x works so well in the first place, all the options are available.
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Old 10-04-2018, 09:42 AM   #186
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by 4_4 View Post
In sentence 2 you do what you say you hate people doing in sentence 1.

I didnt say raising that much UTG wont work. I said I dont see how it will work.


I use Ed Miller's range at lots of tables. I win with this range. It could be I'd win more if I tighten up. idk. Always reassessing.

This is my point. If you play well post flop you can raise all kinda of hands from all kinds of positions and make a profit, but that doesnt mean those are the highest EV plays. I'll say this though. When I really cranked up my preflop aggression about 1200 hours ago, it forced me to become a much better post flop player because I was getting into many more iffy spots with things like middle pair. My win rate has sky rocketed since then. Im just saying that the range Shai listed probably goes over board. Im not saying its not in the book. Im sure it is, but those guys dont play in these games anymore. Id honestly love to see them play in our games for 2000 hours and see what happens.




And yes, if somebody starts abusing me with the 3bets, I adjust. No biggie. It's part of why 3x works so well in the first place, all the options are available.

I also hate the 3x raise. I have a good friend actually did read that book and did open that range to 3x. He was making like 3-4BBs/hr for a long while. When I finally convinced him to tighten up in EP and never open to less than 4x, his win rate has doubled since then.
This same friend just sent me the quote from the book that talks about opening range from EP and it specifically states he is talking about playing a typical 1/2 game. Maybe you think 2/5 isnt different but I think theres a huge difference.

Last edited by MikeStarr; 10-04-2018 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 10-04-2018, 10:15 AM   #187
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
I had KJ. Not AK. How often am I getting 3 streets from a guy and he has KT or less in a raised pot? Just about never. I see people try it and I watch them go down in flames all the time.

Lots of people would say raising KJ from MP at all is -EV because you get called by dominated hands too often. There's no way you can get 3 streets long term.

The better plan is to plan in advance to get 2 streets with TP and then depending on the villain figure out which 2 streets is best. If he chases draws, bet the flop and turn. If he is more likely to have middle pair and think its good if you check the flop, then bet the turn and river.

This particular villain is aggro enough that I know if I check a Kxx flop he will assume I dont have a King and try to barrel me off of QQ-TT for 2 streets.
Idk, I have gotten 3 streets of value with KJ quite often and gotten snapped by regs holding Kx. You dominate all Kx apart from some percentage of KQ which is 3bet at a decent frequency, AK i expect to be 3bet close to 100% of the time by regs.

But then again maybe I have a much more aggressive image than you which lets me get paid off. Another important note is that V is in the bb so I expect him to continue with a grand majority if not all of his Kxs, and his KTo. Sure every once in a while I end up value-owning myself but I think I make up for it for the times I get 3 streets or stack a non-believer.

I would use a much weaker king like K9 or weaker to check-back a high % on the flop vs a reg. But thats just my take on the situation.

Vs. a fish I am going to try to get the whole stack in the middle by the river depending on how deep we are.
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Old 10-04-2018, 10:25 AM   #188
MikeStarr
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Idk, I have gotten 3 streets of value with KJ quite often and gotten snapped by regs holding Kx. You dominate all Kx apart from some percentage of KQ which is 3bet at a decent frequency, AK i expect to be 3bet close to 100% of the time by regs.

But then again maybe I have a much more aggressive image than you which lets me get paid off. Another important note is that V is in the bb so I expect him to continue with a grand majority if not all of his Kxs, and his KTo. Sure every once in a while I end up value-owning myself but I think I make up for it for the times I get 3 streets or stack a non-believer.

I would use a much weaker king like K9 or weaker to check-back a high % on the flop vs a reg. But thats just my take on the situation.

Vs. a fish I am going to try to get the whole stack in the middle by the river depending on how deep we are.
Its just a difference in styles. Im not saying your way wont work. It also depends on your table. My room is pretty nitty. There are a few donks who call raises with K4s but I honestly cant remember them calling 3 streets with TP. Im sure its happened and they didnt show but it has to be super rare.

Also, dont forget that when you have KJ, there are 2 kickers that beat you and 4 that could pair on the board most times. If the board is K7493, you beat KT, K8, K6, K5 and K2 and lose to AK, KQ, K9, K7, K4 and K3.

You lose to more hands than you beat and you are much much more likely to get called 3 streets (or raised) by the hands that beat you than the K4, K3 type hands. AK, might 3 bet you preflop, but the same donks that call raises with K4s also just call with AK most of the time.

Do yourself a favor and keep accurate records and results of all of your KJ/QT/JT/KT type hands. You might be surprised by the results you see.
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Old 10-04-2018, 10:31 AM   #189
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
This same friend just sent me the quote from the book that talks about opening range from EP and it specifically states he is talking about playing a typical 1/2 game. Maybe you think 2/5 isnt different but I think theres a huge difference.
I agree that 2-5 typically plays quite different from 1-3 or 1-2. We seem to be in the minority in that opinion around here.
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Old 10-04-2018, 10:52 AM   #190
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

I know we've gotten way off topic of the hand but this conversation has actually turned interesting.

Lets talk about TAG and "standard"

Standard is what most people would do
TAG is obviously Tight Aggressive.

Tight implies playing less hands than the avg player or in this case raising less hands than the avg player since we are talking about raising.

What do we think the avg persons raise percentage is UTG? How about a raising percentage in general?

Forget about what some book says. That book is written buy a guy who doesnt even play poker anymore. Id much rather pick the brain of a good LAG who is beating my games with lines that confuse me or lines I want to get better at using, than some guy who wrote a book years ago, doesnt play anymore and who knows how long its been since he played in low stakes games.

There's no way the avg player in a 2/5 game is raising anywhere near 14% so if you're raising UTG 12-14% you aren't tight. You are looser than avg which makes you loose. That's a LAG raising range in a 2/5 game. In a 1/2 game its insanity.

Do I raise that much in EP when I play 1/2? Yes I do, and people think Im insane. They certainly don't think Im "tight" because Im crazy loose compared to what they are used to seeing.

Obviously the avg person is way too passive, but when we say tight or loose we are comparing to the avg person.

End of rant.
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Old 10-04-2018, 10:53 AM   #191
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
Jesus you guys are nitty. The open range I used is from slightly tweaked hand charts from CLP and Jandas recent book. It could not be more standard.

You must be joking about LAGs OTB not playing this loose. That or you're the most unobservant person ever. LAGs OTB have far more hands than JJ-55, ATs+, A5s-A4s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, AQo+ which btw is just 9.2% of hands.

Or is the idea we should be raise/folding? We are 200BB effective and it's 8BB to call. We have enough IO to call with the entire range, particularly considering how easy it is to bluff MS.

It's hilarious to me MS thinks he's a LAG but that solid ABC Euro guys aren't opening AJs.
I don't think I'm nitty at all,
most of the time I'm accused of being a Maniac playing any two cards

to me TAG stands for tight , opening from UTG with K10 or Q10 is not tight

maybe its the fact I play mostly noon to 5 Monday thru Friday and you guys play nights and weekends

but I can tell you with an open UTG range like you posted you would be an ATM machine to these guys
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Old 10-04-2018, 10:57 AM   #192
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

In all honesty, Id rather sit down with Shai and pick his brain about poker, than Ed Miller. He and I play differently and have had plenty of disagreements in the past about playing styles but hes been right about some of them and I think he could teach me more than Ed Miller ever could.

I disagree with him about his raising range from UTG being optimal but that doesnt make it -EV, and I like to contemplate anything that may be able to make me better. Regardless of what it may seem like to people here.
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Old 10-04-2018, 11:42 AM   #193
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
Meanwhile just downbet flop and even the bad turn, say, 50/90 to make some money from heroing pairs, then aim to ck back riv.
Yeah i like this line a lot.
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Old 10-04-2018, 11:59 AM   #194
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Its just a difference in styles. Im not saying your way wont work. It also depends on your table. My room is pretty nitty. There are a few donks who call raises with K4s but I honestly cant remember them calling 3 streets with TP. Im sure its happened and they didnt show but it has to be super rare.

Also, dont forget that when you have KJ, there are 2 kickers that beat you and 4 that could pair on the board most times. If the board is K7493, you beat KT, K8, K6, K5 and K2 and lose to AK, KQ, K9, K7, K4 and K3.

You lose to more hands than you beat and you are much much more likely to get called 3 streets (or raised) by the hands that beat you than the K4, K3 type hands. AK, might 3 bet you preflop, but the same donks that call raises with K4s also just call with AK most of the time.

Do yourself a favor and keep accurate records and results of all of your KJ/QT/JT/KT type hands. You might be surprised by the results you see.
Yeah when I bet three streets and get snapped off I just assume they have a weaker king or a middling pocket pair, as they just muck when they are beat.

If I get raised that is an entirely different situation. Also there are many instances where one of the low-cards pair giving V less combos that have me beat.

As I said sometimes I value-own myself but IMO i profit more by betting three streets when I raise and get called by the BB who will have a lot of those dominated Kxs combos. And when betting 3 streets you can also look at the suits of the low cards to discount certain combos of Kxs. If you start doing this you will find that there are in fact a lot more combos that you have beat than have you beat. So the way you are adding up combos is flawed.

Lastly, KT, QT, JT I probably won't be betting for three streets all the time when you pair the top card (QT/JT probably never) but if the board is T-high I will definitely be betting KT for 3 streets on clean runouts and QT to some frequency on clean runouts.

If a donk happens to have AK or KQ then so be it. I don't really see it happening with AK that often as when donks calls pre instead of 3betting it, they tend to massively overplay their hand and let me get away cheap. (atleast the donks where I play)

I advocate this specifically to a BB's range btw... not a CO flat range or sb flat range...
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:30 PM   #195
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

^
There's a difference between getting "3 streets" in a single raised pot and getting "3 streets" in a bloated 3bet UTG vs UTG+1 pot with QQ. Sometimes 3 streets will cause you to go broke in a huge pot with a medium strength hand.
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Old 10-04-2018, 01:17 PM   #196
mrdestiny
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

An overpair on a dry board is a medium strength hand?
Sometimes 3 streets will double you up in a huge pot.
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Old 10-04-2018, 06:54 PM   #197
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by wait View Post
Preach mrdestiny.

Also does everyone realize you can make up anything you want about your win rate? Whether leaving info out or adding in wrong info. People do it all the time with golf handicaps.

Lastly who cares, you could train someone who has never played poker in 2 weeks to beat live 2/5 casino games.
He provided no explanation at all, except to make the obviously false statement that were near the top of your range. In reality this is probably the worst hand we'd consider calling with.

By the way there's no preaching there. Preaching requires exposition, which is conspicuously absent. Why don't you, or him, explain?
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Old 10-04-2018, 07:02 PM   #198
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
I know we've gotten way off topic of the hand but this conversation has actually turned interesting.

Lets talk about TAG and "standard"

Standard is what most people would do

When posters say “standard” in these forums here, they don’t mean what most people do.
They mean what good players do – standard for good players. It’s short for – “the right play”.


TAG is obviously Tight Aggressive.

Tight implies playing less hands than the avg player or in this case raising less hands than the avg player since we are talking about raising.

What do we think the avg persons raise percentage is UTG? How about a raising percentage in general?

Regarding tight – you seem to be equating tight and aggressive in this sentence.

TAGS are tight and aggressive so their vpip and pfr numbers are close to each other. I know you know this.

Your nits are prolly tight passive. So, no, they aren’t raising UTG 14%. But they are probably limping and raising combined UTG at least that if not more.



Forget about what some book says. That book is written buy a guy who doesnt even play poker anymore. Id much rather pick the brain of a good LAG who is beating my games with lines that confuse me or lines I want to get better at using, than some guy who wrote a book years ago, doesnt play anymore and who knows how long its been since he played in low stakes games.

There's no way the avg player in a 2/5 game is raising anywhere near 14% so if you're raising UTG 12-14% you aren't tight. You are looser than avg which makes you loose. That's a LAG raising range in a 2/5 game. In a 1/2 game its insanity.

Do I raise that much in EP when I play 1/2? Yes I do, and people think Im insane. They certainly don't think Im "tight" because Im crazy loose compared to what they are used to seeing.

Obviously the avg person is way too passive, but when we say tight or loose we are comparing to the avg person.

End of rant.
No?
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Old 10-04-2018, 07:06 PM   #199
RJT
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
In all honesty, Id rather sit down with Shai and pick his brain about poker, than Ed Miller. He and I play differently and have had plenty of disagreements in the past about playing styles but hes been right about some of them and I think he could teach me more than Ed Miller ever could.

I disagree with him about his raising range from UTG being optimal but that doesnt make it -EV, and I like to contemplate anything that may be able to make me better. Regardless of what it may seem like to people here.
In addition to poker in general, he can talk to you about books to read.

Don't assume it's Little's which you mentioned picking up. IIRC that wouldn't be his first choice.
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Old 10-04-2018, 07:33 PM   #200
MikeStarr
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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In addition to poker in general, he can talk to you about books to read.

Don't assume it's Little's which you mentioned picking up. IIRC that wouldn't be his first choice.
The more I think about it, I really dont care to read any poker books at all.

There is much better and more relevant info to be had by watching good players and discussing hands with them.
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