Ditto

Seriously? Because the alternative is to call $20 with QQ and go 3-5 to the flop with me being OOP to all but the UTG raiser. That's terrible. Hes probably going to call with hands that I dominate like 88-JJ as well as AK-AJs that Im way ahead of.

Sure if he is calling with those hands. My impression was that you didn't think he would continue with those

Also I'm less concerned with the number of players than I am with UTG opening and 3b calling range. Still important obv but latter far more important


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So he’s going to call the 3bet with AJs but then x/f Jxxr flops for a 1/3 PSB?

Okay this thread has officially 1) gone full ******, 2) you are trolling everyone, or 3) you are oblivious to your stream of consciousness and just love to hear yourself talk.

I remind everyone that trolling strat threads is not allowed. I will start infracting any non-strat posts ITT. You can disagree with Mike (and vice versa), and even add a headslap emoji, but it better be after substantive strat discussion.

This. Stop it.

And Mike, stop quoting your winrate whenever anyone attacks your strat. Incitement to riot is no excuse for rioting, but it does make it more likely.

For the love of God, where did I say he would fold AJ on the flop? SMH

Some of you guys have some serious reading comprehension problems.

If he's solid and 200BB deep shouldn't he have some TP hands like AJs KJs QJs JTs? We can bet for value against these and underpairs probably peel at least once. He should also have hands that whiffed like AK AQ KQ ATs maybe A5s T9s 98s. He should very rarely have KK+. Solid players don't raise/call KK+ IME. So we are worried about mostly two hands, JJ and 77. Maybe 44.

I don't think checking is horrible but I see no reason not to bet here. I would size around 50 to 60.

Definitely not a good card but maybe not as bad as you think. TT JTs and 98s got there but ATs KTs QTs made second pair and will probably call. I like the bet and sizing.

River donk is a bit odd. Your line does look like AK so he could be bluffing, but there aren't a lot of bluffs in his range unless we expect him to peel OTT hands like AQ KQ which unfortunately you block. But I think he could have AJ or KJs or QJs here (probably not but at least a couple combos). JJ 77 and JTs also possible, but weirdly played not raising the turn.

I don't expect solid players to slowplay sets in a 3 bet pot, so if your evaluation is that he's solid I would heavily discount sets.

This could be just TP though donking is weird because you can't call with many worse hands. Maybe TT if you even 3 bet that UTG+1.

Mostly this looks like a bluff to me, but sure it is possible he has taken a weird line with JTs or a set, or is betting TP.

I'm tanking to look for a read and sigh calling if I don't pick up anything since we just need to win 29%.

Umm how about your first freaking post dude?

When you say you only beat AK/TT you are implying he's either a) not calling with hands like 99/88/66/AJs-JTs pre or that he's x/f them on the flop, both of which are absolutely ******ed assumptions versus a young 20's Euro 200 BB's effective.

You saw zero showdowns so how do you know he isn't opening speculative hands?

IMO an ABC raise/call range looks something like

JJ-55, ATs+, A5s-A4s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, AQo+

He may 4 bet or fold some of these hands at some frequency but he should have a lot more than TT JJ AK...

I dont know that for sure. Im just basing my range for him on his position and his frequency of his raises. I think your range is way too wide for an ABC TAG type player UTG.

At low stakes, no way. Now maybe I'm on the nitty side of ABC, but no way in hell I'm opening 55-66 or any of those suited gappers UTG.

My range would look like 88-JJ, AJs+, AQo+, and some would probably argue for being even tighter UTG (shoutout to GG) and a little looser with deeper stacks but just a little.

I agree. But your ABC TAG range here seems way too narrow.

How’s 88-QQ, 1/2 (KK, AA), AQs, 1/2 (AK), 1/2(T9s+)?

With this range, I still think V gets to the river with enough river bluffing hands to justify a call.

BTW, I think the river sizing by V with his KK is way too big. In his position, I bet $90-$100 for thin value. $90, you snap call and we don’t have a 2+2 thread.


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That sounds about right. I notice you took out AJ. During the hand I considered AJ but didnt really think he had it. I raise AJ UTG sometimes but it would be pretty rare that I would call a 3 bet from UTG+1 with it.

My UTG raising range is somewhere between yours and what Shai listed depending on the table. On this table I would tighten up for sure in EP.

Maybe we mean something different by ABC, solid TAG.

To me a solid ABC TAG player is a strongly winning player using standard ranges, the kind you would find in modern poker books or on training sites.

This range is from crush live poker (and actually intended for LLSNL games like this) for UTG and is close to what I use:

77+, ATs+, A5s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, AQo+

At an action table with little 3 betting I will go a bit wider on the pocket pairs but drop the suited connectors and AXs at some frequency. I still open them some but 98s for example I may drop to 25%. Once I raise to 20 however and get 3 bet to 60 by what is likely something like JJ+ AQs+ AK+, I am usually calling 40 with 98s. We are just barely deep enough for a call with such hands. Against you specifically, assuming I know how tight you are postflop and unlikely to pay me off, I may fold, but you seem like a very easy target for semibluffs (or even naked bluffs) so then again maybe not. And I mean no insult by that as it's usually correct in these games to exploitably fold to such aggression.

This is a pretty standard open range for 9-handed.

Janda goes even wider, though he favors AXs to SCs :

77+, A9s+, A5s-A2s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo+, KQo

Most of these hands we don't 4-bet are worth a call vs. a 3x raise 1k deep. If we use the conservative 15/25/35 rule, calling 98s for example we have 40*25 = 1000 making it breakevenish just for the nutmining qualities of the hand. Add that it's a good bluffing hand vs. you and we have a profitable call. So yes I think a solid ABC Euro guy at an action table 1000 effective (or was he 1300 deep?) is indeed typically raise/calling *something like*

JJ-55, ATs+, A5s-A4s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, AQo+

With the caveat some of the weaker hands may be folded or 4 bet bluffed at some frequency, and AK is 4 bet at some frequency. I think this is *close* for villain as described. Maybe he has 7% instead of 9% of hands but it is close.

Much closer than thinking you only beat AK/TT.

BUT if by solid ABC player you mean a typical nitty, unimaginative reg with no bluffs who wins a 3 to 5 blinds an hour, then my range is likely way off.

To me that is just not the definition of a solid ABC player.

And are we disagreeing on his UTG open range or the hands he opens and calls a 3 bet, or both?

I agree with this to the point that I think if we aren't calling here with QQ, there is something wrong with our overall poker game, even if the cards were face up. It's literally a bad fold even when you're right

If I'm in villains seat I'm going to have 89s or QK or just ace high or even a complete busto hand pretty often when I only call pre and check the flop. If I have KK with any frequency here it's only because "hero" folds to my 3bets too often and I've already run over him in previous (future) encounters. In short, I'm going to force you to call with QQ here because if you are folding it you are laying down to too many of my bluffs

This is one of those MikeStarr posts where he argues he is right because of the actual cards being held but in reality he is wrong because he has already lost money playing hands where he folded the best hand but didn't post. He only posted because he found out he was right this particular time

Or he is a genius

Flop: From a theory perspective we should be betting full range here and I don't see why we should deviate from that. I don't think the EV of check vs bet will be massively different, but I definitely prefer a bet.

Turn: I would go bigger on turn but bet is fine.

River: I would call. River leads do tend to be strong but we are just so high up in our range with an underepped hand. We block KQ which is probably his most sensible river lead as a bluff but that's a marginal factor.

Lol @ results.

How about you consider a different line on your preflop or flop play? OP tells people to adjust and not play the same old tired lines. Somebody comments on the idea of flatting QQ, OP's response....

Flatting QQ shall not be considered. His line preflop is perfect and is justified by his assumptions which seem to change all the time. Now V can have AJs in his range but to think UTG would raise his other suited broadways... then this guy is borderline maniac player?, but there is a small chance OP is wrong. Even though the OP, a seemingly very tight player, would himself open these hands from UTG. The logic behind this???

Wait, remember that advice to flat QQ UTG+1, that is not only being dismissed by OP, it is a terrible play. If you considered this non-standard approach to the game... you are playing terrible poker? Didn't OP just argue to adding a lot more non-conventional play to your arsenal?
And hey while OP's at it, he can now widen V's continue range to his 3bet to back his case for arguing that flatting QQ is a terrible play. Here we go again with the contradictions.

OP is the obvious culprit. Note that post #133 has not been answered.

When OP makes circular arguments I respectfully disagree with scolding the masses for getting dizzy.

You must be joking. Or trolling. idk I can't comprehend a winning player with this level of ignorance of the math of the game. You'd do well to attempt to demonstrate how a call is -EV.

Read posts #45, #53, #56, #92, #98, #122

That's 6 times that I said the river is a call. How in the world do you think that I am arguing that I was right?

The only possible way that flat calling here preflop with QQ is correct is to set mine if UTG will only have AA/KK here. That's just not the case.

The arguments you guys are throwing at me are beyond ridiculous. If I posted this same hand and flat called this UTG raise, Id get flamed.

Actually I did answer post #133 indirectly in post #138.

I didnt put villain on AJ. I considered it but didnt think a seemingly solid ABC type player would call a 3 bet with it in this situation. So in the original post when I said I only beat AK/TT, it was because I wasnt putting him on AJ. I shouldve included AJ in the hands I beat though because it is possible for him to have it.

YOUR arguments are beyond ridiculous and contradictory, especially when it comes to flatting QQ preflop. You state that it is incorrect to do this. How about your flop, turn and river line? To me it seems like those lines are also incorrect, but you seem to be able to defend your passive lines. So you are basically saying that you cannot mix it up preflop but postflop you are allowed to be creative? This is probably my third or maybe even fourth times bringing this up.

Why do find that QQ cannot be flatted preflop but justify it being played passively on J74 board HU in position with the initiative? Why is calling preflop a mistake you cannot make, but checking flop a mistake that you seem acceptable? Enlighten me please.

I can't imagine you would. Why would flatting be so horrible? Someone could squeeze behind you, or you can win a nice pot post-flop with a well-disguised hand. Even if you go 5way to the flop, it doesn't automatically mean you're beat. You could still win a good-sized pot with a well-disguised hand. Or get away cheaply on less favourable boards.

I'm not against 3betting here, but I don't particularly love 3betting a presumably tight player from UTG+1 either, certainly not if you're basically turning your hand face-up. Everyone will put you on AA/KK, maybe QQ/AK, and they would probably be right.

Furthermore, if we have QQ, we don't want them to fold all their AQ, AJ, ATs, KQ, KJs, QJs, JTs... If we think they're folding so much (I don't, but you seem to think so), then why would our EV be higher if we raise than if we call? Sure, we could let half the table in, but as long as we know what we're doing post-flop and don't automatically go nuts, that doesn't necessarily have to be the disaster you think it is.

Ive flatted raises with big pairs plenty of times, but I think its a mistake to do it in this spot with so many people behind me that I have every reason to believe are coming in. I see good strong winning players make moves that I think are mistakes quite often, but when they are winning players I try to figure out why they did it to see if it makes sense to me. Maybe I can add those plays to my arsenal. Ive added a lot of plays this way over the last 3 years and my results have increased dramatically.

Checking the flop is not a mistake. Its just a non standard play to mix in from time to time. I would bet the flop most of the time but not every time. If I had bet the flop and he folded (which happens all the time) I wouldnt have posted the hand. It wouldnt have been very interesting now would it?

So you are critiquing my play and it seems stupid to you, but you should be opening your mind to alternative lines that can make you much tougher to read and increase your win rate. My mistake in this hand was folding the river after taking an alternative line. If anyone is counting thats the 7th time I said the river was a mistake.


Let me give you another example hand

I open $20 in MP KJ. An aggro guy calls in the BB

Flop ($40) K64. He checks. I check back. If I posted this hand and didnt bet the flop people's head would explode. (OMG you have TP you have to bet)

Turn ($40) 3. He leads $50. I call
River ($140) 2. He bets $125. I tank for a while and then call.

He had QJ. I made an extra $175 by checking the flop and underepping my hand. Could I have gotten outdrawn by doing that? Of course. He couldve had 33 or 5x or a few other hands that outdrew me

My point is that there are plenty of ways to make money playing poker. If I posted this KJ hand, this same type of argument wouldve broken out. If I had bet the flop in this KJ kand which I would do 75% of the time, he wouldve check/folded and I wouldnt have posted the hand.