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Old 10-05-2018, 03:08 PM   #226
DrChesspain
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by setintostraight View Post

And I do agree with his point on books too. There was a list of casinos he played at, which is probably way broader than most book writing 'crushers'.
You really think that the handful or so of successful authors on NL cash poker probably have played in fewer card rooms than MikeStarr?

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

This thread is really racing to the bottom.
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Old 10-05-2018, 03:14 PM   #227
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

Roy Cooke summed it up in the Sept card player

when one is able to read a player and situation and deviate from GTO to achieve a higher EV advantage , now you are learning
to simply play GTO with no thought is to stagnate and be left behind
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Old 10-05-2018, 04:24 PM   #228
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Nope
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4_4 View Post
et tu Amanaplan? sigh
I'll take the best soldier over the best officer any day.

This may not come out well, but … this kind of hand is a superb one to post because it isn't a cooler (and no it isnt a potential cooler UTG UTG1 to have KK v QQ) or some short stack thoughtless gii nonsense spot. Playing this type of smallish/standard spot well over and over and over is how you win at poker. (at least as far as on-table is concerned). It's just incomplete to say winning = correct because it's more about 'correct for your range', which means that there is no such thing as an ABC spot unless everyone in here is playing the same ranges at the same frequencies beyond just preflop (which we're obviously not).

Now, I'm all for keeping 'balanced' in the traditional sense, and having an understanding for what that looks like certainly helps you play better, but it doesn't account wholly for winning.

I asked Mike 'why deviate' because once a so-far-tightish player goes raise-call UTG, QQ is going to be more of a 1-2 street thin value hand on this runout at best. Checking flop is a real thing against aggro/better types, and it also might be a good line if Mike does not have much JJ as a 3b pre here, but for the most part I just say 'don't deviate' because betting flop wins so often against this player. The way the hand played out, the UTG takes such a clown line that Mike wanted to post it up here and see what TF is going on... scratching his head, he said. It's a fold I guess as played, but I'd much rather have bet bet and gotten shown KK or bet ck bet and seen it than check flop, bet and then fold river because why tf did I lighten up my own range with this line only to fold an OP on the river to a player that may did get induced/have some bluffs/worse for value now? Seems bad, but his lol sizing/range makes it a muck nonetheless.

Anyways, once you have a handle on your own ranges, it really is about exploiting player archetypes even with limited info. This hand against some guy in a collared shirt and a gold watch is 80 pre and 3 streets 100% of the time. Against this guy, 3b pre (I guess), bet (nice), bet (meh, best option probably), check.

Last edited by Amanaplan; 10-05-2018 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 10-05-2018, 04:49 PM   #229
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by snowman View Post
Roy Cooke summed it up in the Sept card player

when one is able to read a player and situation and deviate from GTO to achieve a higher EV advantage , now you are learning
to simply play GTO with no thought is to stagnate and be left behind
LOL. This assumes that Mike or most players know how to play GTO in the first place.

Hint: they don't.
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Old 10-05-2018, 05:51 PM   #230
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
I'll take the best soldier over the best officer any day.

This may not come out well, but this kind of hand is a superb one to post because it isn't a cooler (and no it isnt a potential cooler UTG UTG1 to have KK v QQ) or some short stack thoughtless gii nonsense spot. Playing this type of smallish/standard spot well over and over and over is how you win at poker. (at least as far as on-table is concerned). It's just incomplete to say winning = correct because it's more about 'correct for your range', which means that there is no such thing as an ABC spot unless everyone in here is playing the same ranges at the same frequencies beyond just preflop (which we're obviously not).

Now, I'm all for keeping 'balanced' in the traditional sense, and having an understanding for what that looks like certainly helps you play better, but it doesn't account wholly for winning.

I asked Mike 'why deviate' because once a so-far-tightish player goes raise-call UTG, QQ is going to be more of a 1-2 street thin value hand on this runout at best. Checking flop is a real thing against aggro/better types, and it also might be a good line if Mike does not have much JJ as a 3b pre here, but for the most part I just say 'don't deviate' because betting flop wins so often against this player. The way the hand played out, the UTG takes such a clown line that Mike wanted to post it up here and see what TF is going on... scratching his head, he said. It's a fold I guess as played, but I'd much rather have bet bet and gotten shown KK or bet ck bet and seen it than check flop, bet and then fold river because why tf did I lighten up my own range with this line only to fold an OP on the river to a player that may did get induced/have some bluffs/worse for value now? Seems bad, but his lol sizing/range makes it a muck nonetheless.

Anyways, once you have a handle on your own ranges, it really is about exploiting player archetypes even with limited info. This hand against some guy in a collared shirt and a gold watch is 80 pre and 3 streets 100% of the time. Against this guy, 3b pre (I guess), bet (nice), bet (meh, best option probably), check.
So we agree after all. Although I'm too slow to get the soldier-officer comment.
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Old 10-05-2018, 08:12 PM   #231
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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So we agree after all. Although I'm too slow to get the soldier-officer comment.
I’d prefer to spend five minutes talking to Garrett before 5 days reading Janda. Stick w the guys in the trenches.
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Old 10-05-2018, 08:23 PM   #232
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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LOL. This assumes that Mike or most players know how to play GTO in the first place.

Hint: they don't.
I know about as much about GTO as I do about Russian Literature.
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Old 10-05-2018, 09:21 PM   #233
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
2) UTG limps. I raise $25 MP AQ. Both blinds call. The BB is a strong player. UTG and SB are mediocre

Flop ($100) A93. They check to me. I check back
Turn ($100) J. SB checks. BB leads $75.

SB will never have an ace and check twice. UTG could have one and have checked to me preflop. I should never have an ace here after being the preflop raiser and checking the flop. So a strong player in the BB can easily be trying to steal this and it would be a good play.

UTG folds. I min raise to $150. I think Im ahead most of the time and I want to get back the value I may have lost on the flop if he has an Ace. If he reraises Im folding. Its unlikely hes reraising without a monster because too many people would play AA/99/JJ this way in my shoes. He calls.

River ($400) 2. He checks. I check back because I doubt hes calling another bet unless he has me beat. I probably only get more value from ATs and even then maybe not. I dont think he will call another bet with something like QJs.
Don't you think you would win more by just calling the turn and then calling the river rather than this minraise line (I doubt he is going to bet only $75 on the river). How do you balance your min-raise OTT, will you ever show up with a bluff? What is your check/calling range going to look like when this is the line you take with this hand?

Seems like a suboptimal play IMO and I doubt you will be able to pull it off twice vs the same villain.
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Old 10-05-2018, 09:50 PM   #234
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Id prefer to spend five minutes talking to Garrett before 5 days reading Janda. Stick w the guys in the trenches.
Is everyone still talking about live 2/5? Jfc
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Old 10-05-2018, 10:15 PM   #235
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

poker is dead.
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Old 10-05-2018, 10:16 PM   #236
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by mrdestiny View Post
Don't you think you would win more by just calling the turn and then calling the river rather than this minraise line (I doubt he is going to bet only $75 on the river). How do you balance your min-raise OTT, will you ever show up with a bluff? What is your check/calling range going to look like when this is the line you take with this hand?

Seems like a suboptimal play IMO and I doubt you will be able to pull it off twice vs the same villain.
I dont mind your suggestion of calling the turn and calling the river either. He may or may not bet the river as a bluff though. Ive never played with the guy before so I have no idea. He might fire more than $75 on the river and I make more or he might give up and check/fold and I make less. There's no way of knowing.

I could make more or less than $150 your way, but I have to call the river every time, so I will lose more for sure your way when Im beat.

The one thing I like about my line better is that I make $150 for sure when I win and if he fires the river after getting raised on the turn, I know I'm beat so I wont lose more than $150.
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Old 10-05-2018, 10:32 PM   #237
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Shai,

You have a way of misinterpreting most of what I say.

I have no problem with your opening range at all. I think if you have a few really good player at your table, they will make your life hell but there arent that many good players overall so it should be fine. The 5/10 in my room has some very aggro players and when I play it I get 3 bet relentlessly (and I do 4 bet very lite sometimes to combat it). Im sure your 2/5 games are similar to mine though with very few people 3 betting just because they think you are opening lite, so its not a problem. This entire opening range discussion started when I said I didnt think THIS villain opens that wide and that I wouldnt call that range a TAG range.

My definition could be way off I guess because I dont read poker books. To me a Tight player is someone who is considerably tighter than avg. Most tight players are folding UTG with quite a few of the hands you are listing as raising hands. There are countless threads here where people advise to fold things like QJs/AJ UTG.


Im willing to listen to other crushers who deviate from standard ABC play because those are the ones I can learn from. I already know how to play standard ABC poker. I did it for a long time and won but not at the rate I win now. You may not believe that because I dont post those kinds of hands here, but most of my hands are pretty ABC.

Which hand would you rather me post? These are both from yesterday.

1) I open to $20 in MP AK. LP calls.
Flop ($40) K76. I bet $30. He calls.
Turn ($100) 2. I bet $70. He folds

Total waste of time to post

2) UTG limps. I raise $25 MP AQ. Both blinds call. The BB is a strong player. UTG and SB are mediocre

Flop ($100) A93. They check to me. I check back
Turn ($100) J. SB checks. BB leads $75.

SB will never have an ace and check twice. UTG could have one and have checked to me preflop. I should never have an ace here after being the preflop raiser and checking the flop. So a strong player in the BB can easily be trying to steal this and it would be a good play.

UTG folds. I min raise to $150. I think Im ahead most of the time and I want to get back the value I may have lost on the flop if he has an Ace. If he reraises Im folding. Its unlikely hes reraising without a monster because too many people would play AA/99/JJ this way in my shoes. He calls.

River ($400) 2. He checks. I check back because I doubt hes calling another bet unless he has me beat. I probably only get more value from ATs and even then maybe not. I dont think he will call another bet with something like QJs.

He had QTs. I really love his turn bet when he picked up the straight draw and it looked like a $75 bet would steal the pot.

This hand is a hell of a lot more interesting, but when I post hands like this everyone thinks I play every hand this way which isnt true. I made $150 more on this hand by checking the flop. Of course I couldve gotten outdrawn by checking it also. That comes with the territory. You have to tread lightly when you do this since I gave them a free card to outdraw me, but they will normally tell me when Im beat and overall I win more money playing non ABC like this.

In the AK hand I may have won more by checking the turn to him and seeing if he would try to take the pot away from me. That would be non ABC and may or may not have worked but again, I dont try that stuff every hand.

In case you missed the point, I DO play standard ABC more often than not but its boring to post that stuff here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Shai,

You have a way of misinterpreting most of what I say.
Perhaps. But if so I suggest you have a problem expressing yourself in a clear and logical manner. You also keep ignoring any argument that dispels yours. I'm done on that front because although I respect you as a poker player you are just impossible to convince of anything you don't already know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
My definition could be way off I guess because I dont read poker books. To me a Tight player is someone who is considerably tighter than avg. Most tight players are folding UTG with quite a few of the hands you are listing as raising hands. There are countless threads here where people advise to fold things like QJs/AJ UTG.
TAGs DO play tighter than average in comparison to the entire player pool (not in comparison to other regs or solid players). Most people play too many hands. They may not raise too many hands but they play too many. That's where the money comes from. They play too many hands and either fold too much or call too much or raise too much post flop.

Whether active 2p2ers tend to fold QJs is irrelevant because you are looking at a biased sample of presumably much stronger than average players. And I do think most active 2p2ers tend towards the nitty side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
I already know how to play standard ABC poker.
I mean no offense but I truly doubt that. To be clear we may mean different things by "standard ABC poker" and as such I'm not sure those terms are that useful. What I am advocating is a more theoretically sound and math-based approach. It is perfectly fine to deviate if you have good reasons (such as live reads) but you should have that baseline.

And I doubt any of us have mastered such an approach. I haven't even come close. Just because you know a basic straightforward TAG game doesn't mean you can't improve your winrate through better understanding of TAG play, even moreso than you currently make. I just get the impression from you that you think you have mastered everything you need to know. Your disdain for poker books and training sites speaks to this. I'll admit many poker books are terrible but I've learned much more from the good ones than talking to other grinders.

You seem to think there is this binary choice between playing a basic, unevolved TAG game and taking "unorthodox" lines. There are other approaches such as expert TAG play.
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Old 10-05-2018, 10:45 PM   #238
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
Perhaps. But if so I suggest you have a problem expressing yourself in a clear and logical manner. You also keep ignoring any argument that dispels yours. I'm done on that front because although I respect you as a poker player you are just impossible to convince of anything you don't already know.



TAGs DO play tighter than average in comparison to the entire player pool (not in comparison to other regs or solid players). Most people play too many hands. They may not raise too many hands but they play too many. That's where the money comes from. They play too many hands and either fold too much or call too much or raise too much post flop.

Whether active 2p2ers tend to fold QJs is irrelevant because you are looking at a biased sample of presumably much stronger than average players. And I do think most active 2p2ers tend towards the nitty side.



I mean no offense but I truly doubt that. To be clear we may mean different things by "standard ABC poker" and as such I'm not sure those terms are that useful. What I am advocating is a more theoretically sound and math-based approach. It is perfectly fine to deviate if you have good reasons (such as live reads) but you should have that baseline.

And I doubt any of us have mastered such an approach. I haven't even come close. Just because you know a basic straightforward TAG game doesn't mean you can't improve your winrate through better understanding of TAG play, even moreso than you currently make. I just get the impression from you that you think you have mastered everything you need to know. Your disdain for poker books and training sites speaks to this. I'll admit many poker books are terrible but I've learned much more from the good ones than talking to other grinders.

You seem to think there is this binary choice between playing a basic, unevolved TAG game and taking "unorthodox" lines. There are other approaches such as expert TAG play.
And there you go again misinterpreting what I say.

Mike Starr: Id love to pick the brain of a 40/30 crusher.
Shai: I get the impression you think you have already mastered everything you need to know? .

MikeStarr: I play mostly ABC poker but I mix in some of these unorthodox lines too. It probably looks like I only play strange lines because I dont post standard hands here. They are boring.
Shai: You seem to think there's a binary choice between basic TAG play and taking unorthodox lines

Do you even try to understand anything I say or do you just want to argue?
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Old 10-05-2018, 11:09 PM   #239
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
And there you go again misinterpreting what I say.

Mike Starr: Id love to pick the brain of a 40/30 crusher.
Shai: I get the impression you think you have already mastered everything you need to know? .

MikeStarr: I play mostly ABC poker but I mix in some of these unorthodox lines too. It probably looks like I only play strange lines because I dont post standard hands here. They are boring.
Shai: You seem to think there's a binary choice between basic TAG play and taking unorthodox lines

Do you even try to understand anything I say or do you just want to argue?
Wow. All I can say at this point is your self awareness is close to zero. That or you are deliberately cherrypicking just to show you are right. I like to think you wouldn't do that.

When I read your post I literally thought "did this guy even read or try to understand my response?" I can assure you I have tried to do so with you but it's just endless circles.

I officially give up. Unorthodox play FTW.
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Old 10-05-2018, 11:37 PM   #240
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Wow. All I can say at this point is your self awareness is close to zero. That or you are deliberately cherrypicking just to show you are right. I like to think you wouldn't do that.

When I read your post I literally thought "did this guy even read or try to understand my response?" I can assure you I have tried to do so with you but it's just endless circles.

I officially give up. Unorthodox play FTW.
We finally found something we agree on.
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Old 10-06-2018, 12:17 AM   #241
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

What possesses someone to troll their own thread. I shoulda paid attention in psych class.
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Old 10-06-2018, 12:22 AM   #242
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
Id prefer to spend five minutes talking to Garrett before 5 days reading Janda. Stick w the guys in the trenches.
Yikes. We're not on the same page after all.
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Old 10-06-2018, 09:05 AM   #243
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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What possesses someone to troll their own thread. I shoulda paid attention in psych class.


TTHRIC?


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Old 10-06-2018, 09:15 AM   #244
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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TTHRIC?


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Definitley
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Old 10-06-2018, 09:59 AM   #245
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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Originally Posted by Joey913 View Post
That's interesting that being deep would make some folks want to 4-bet, because to me it would be the opposite. Turning my hand face over as AA/KK deep seems like a recipe to allow our opponent to play perfect against us when we can't make a reasonable 4-bet to shrink the SPR to a level that allows us to GII on just about any flop. I guess this is assuming we are never 4-betting light in the situation, which I also just don't do because the 3-betting range of most of my opponents is so narrow.
V played this hand extremely poorly. He missed out on a huge amount of value. The EV of having KK vs QQ on a no Flush no ace run out should be extremely high.

Mikes read was spot on so congrats on good fold. Im not sure what I would have done, probably called because the line is so weird. For what if it worth, I think is much wider than the assumed ranges. A solid ABC player is going to open UTG wider than AK and TT+ unless ABC is now code for bad.

If you think 4 betting KK is a mistake because it turns your hand face up should be 4betting way more.
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Old 10-06-2018, 12:21 PM   #246
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Re: This one has me scratching head.

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TTHRIC?


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Definitley
Yup.
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