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Old 03-22-2019, 01:14 PM   #23351
gobbledygeek
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Not entirely the same issue as topping off $25 at a time, but tables that allow you to buy from the dealer are great for the game. Very often I will see someone toss a $100 to the dealer to top off, and 2-3 more people follow suit. Monkey see monkey do.

Sadly this structure is a dying breed in most card rooms.
IMO, it likely reduces your hands-dealt-per-hour by 10%, which thus reduces your winrate by about 10% per hour. Our room used to have chip runners who did all the money-to-chip transactions and the dealers simply kept their head down and dealt. But now all of the transactions are being done by the dealers (who also have to deal with the floor coming by every so often to exchange the cash) which greatly cuts into hands / hour.

Git'shorribleforthegame,imoG
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Old 03-22-2019, 01:15 PM   #23352
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
IMO, it likely reduces your hands-dealt-per-hour by 10%, which thus reduces your winrate by about 10% per hour. Our room used to have chip runners who did all the money-to-chip transactions and the dealers simply kept their head down and dealt. But now all of the transactions are being done by the dealers (who also have to deal with the floor coming by every so often to exchange the cash) which greatly cuts into hands / hour.

Git'shorribleforthegame,imoG
agree with this 100%
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Old 03-22-2019, 01:21 PM   #23353
Avaritia
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Not for buy ins, just for top offs.

There’s no way it’s 10% unless the dealers are awful. I could get behind 5%. But it is a good point. Does stack depth + people more casual about losing / topping off out-weigh a 5% reduction in wr.
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Old 03-22-2019, 01:24 PM   #23354
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Not for buy ins, just for top offs.

There’s no way it’s 10% unless the dealers are awful. I could get behind 5%.
For top offs its no issue. The transaction takes about 10 sec which is obv negligible.

The issue in my room where you can buy from the dealer is any transaction over $200 needs a floor to confirm.

I cannot tell you how many times I've had to wait 1-2 minutes for a floor to come over because the room was busy. This is the nut low.

(P.S. $100 bills play in this room which is even more infuriating)
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Old 03-22-2019, 01:25 PM   #23355
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Not for buy ins, just for top offs.

There’s no way it’s 10% unless the dealers are awful. I could get behind 5%.
I figured that if my room averaged 30 hands an hour (fair?), but then the dealer had to deal with money transactions, this could easily take up 3 hands per hour of his time (fair?), which is 10%.

I haven't actually tracked, but it would be an interesting stat, imo. In a game of thin edges, I think it's far more devastating than people realize.

GguesstimatingG
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:43 PM   #23356
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Not for buy ins, just for top offs.

There’s no way it’s 10% unless the dealers are awful. I could get behind 5%. But it is a good point. Does stack depth + people more casual about losing / topping off out-weigh a 5% reduction in wr.
SHRT implemented the "cant buy chips at table" thing about a year ago. For about a month it worked pretty smoothly as there were lots of runners and dealers could yell for chips. For some reason they can only press a button now and it typically takes about 5 minutes to get the chips, though I've seen it vary from less than 1 to more than 10.

The effect is really bad on recs who aren't familiar with the room, i.e. typically the worst recs. Numerous times I've seen somebody bust and try to rebuy, miss their blinds while waiting, then have to post to get back in. This universally pisses them off and I've even seen times the players arguing with floor about the rule which slows the game down, and a couple times where players actually left because they couldn't immediately get back in.

Slow games are also bad but it was pretty rare that buying from the table would take that long, as they used to let you buy chips from other players so we could speed things up if the dealer didn't have a full well.

I'd estimate we get about 1 more hand per hour now. I don't think it's worth it.
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:52 PM   #23357
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

My room started allowing your first buy in at the table about a month or so ago. THIS is horrible. It slows the game down every time a new player comes in. Some clowns even buy in for $500-$1000 with $20 bills which really slows the game down.

The dealers have to get fills way more often now which slows the game down 2 more times when they count out the money for the chip runner (which is a dealer on break since they laid off all the chip runners a while back) and again when they chips come back and the dealer has to count them.

I have no idea why a room would implement a new policy that costs them money. They fixed something that wasnt broken. Nobody was complaining about going to the cage for the first buy in.
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:58 PM   #23358
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
SHRT implemented the "cant buy chips at table" thing about a year ago. For about a month it worked pretty smoothly as there were lots of runners and dealers could yell for chips. For some reason they can only press a button now and it typically takes about 5 minutes to get the chips, though I've seen it vary from less than 1 to more than 10.

The effect is really bad on recs who aren't familiar with the room, i.e. typically the worst recs. Numerous times I've seen somebody bust and try to rebuy, miss their blinds while waiting, then have to post to get back in. This universally pisses them off and I've even seen times the players arguing with floor about the rule which slows the game down, and a couple times where players actually left because they couldn't immediately get back in.

Slow games are also bad but it was pretty rare that buying from the table would take that long, as they used to let you buy chips from other players so we could speed things up if the dealer didn't have a full well.

I'd estimate we get about 1 more hand per hour now. I don't think it's worth it.
Yes this is exactly what I am talking about. I think it’s more serious than people realize.

People even come back less often as you mentioned also. I’m sure of this...I’ve seen it enough to where I’d almost call it common. This is obviously a huge negative because a guy you just stacked who is trying to rebuy is worth more to the table than an extra 2-3 hands / hour.

I think it comes down to staff. If you have great dealers it won’t slow the game down. If you have lots of runners then fine do that.

Most casinos have neither.
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:11 PM   #23359
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Keep plenty of chips in your pocket and sell to people who bust so they don’t have to miss a hand as you wait for the chip runner.

This is what I always do and keeps the game going quickly and makes it so recs never have to miss a hand.
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:33 PM   #23360
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
IMO, it likely reduces your hands-dealt-per-hour by 10%, which thus reduces your winrate by about 10% per hour. Our room used to have chip runners who did all the money-to-chip transactions and the dealers simply kept their head down and dealt. But now all of the transactions are being done by the dealers (who also have to deal with the floor coming by every so often to exchange the cash) which greatly cuts into hands / hour.

Git'shorribleforthegame,imoG
More hands per hour causes everyone else to play tighter which hurts your bb/100. You can't say bb/hr is linearly tied to hands per hour.
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:16 PM   #23361
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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More hands per hour causes everyone else to play tighter which hurts your bb/100. You can't say bb/hr is linearly tied to hands per hour.
If people are playing tighter you will get more hands per hour because each hand takes less time, but how in the world can more hands per hour make people play tighter?
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:14 PM   #23362
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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There’s a fine line where that becomes nitty and gets you in my (probably the whale whose pissed idk we’ll see) no action camp. i would probably say 10-12.5 bbs is that line.
Who cares? Are you playing -EV hands against people in your "action camp?" Are you folding +EV hands against people in your "no action camp?"

I have a couple people who have singled me out for being a nit, which I certainly am by their standards. They are some of the most profitable and easiest players for me to play against. One player auto-folds top pair to a single flop bet from me. The same guy snap folded to a squeeze pre-flop and encouraged everyone else to do so, saying I only play aces. I won > $100 uncontested with some suited rags.
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Old 03-23-2019, 03:24 AM   #23363
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
My room started allowing your first buy in at the table about a month or so ago. THIS is horrible. It slows the game down every time a new player comes in. Some clowns even buy in for $500-$1000 with $20 bills which really slows the game down.

The dealers have to get fills way more often now which slows the game down 2 more times when they count out the money for the chip runner (which is a dealer on break since they laid off all the chip runners a while back) and again when they chips come back and the dealer has to count them.

I have no idea why a room would implement a new policy that costs them money. They fixed something that wasnt broken. Nobody was complaining about going to the cage for the first buy in.
which room is this? in detroit they make u buyin at the cage first and even worse, most of their rooms here dont allow rebuys at the table except for 1. people complain like hell about it, at least in reno and vegas almost everywhere let u buyin at the front desk when they seated u or the table. much more customer friendly

as far as buying in for $500 in all $20s theyre not doing this intentionally, what it means is the atm they just used to get the 500 paid them in 20s instead of 100s
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Old 03-23-2019, 03:27 AM   #23364
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
Who cares? Are you playing -EV hands against people in your "action camp?" Are you folding +EV hands against people in your "no action camp?"

I have a couple people who have singled me out for being a nit, which I certainly am by their standards. They are some of the most profitable and easiest players for me to play against. One player auto-folds top pair to a single flop bet from me. The same guy snap folded to a squeeze pre-flop and encouraged everyone else to do so, saying I only play aces. I won > $100 uncontested with some suited rags.
did u show the bluff? i have a bad habit of showing way too many bluffs, especially when i often limp in preflop in early position with hands like 56 suited, then make a huge limp reraise once a guy raises a small amount in later position i know doesnt have anything and is only trying to build a pot. i get away with this easily because they all know i will limp reraise aa and kk too
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:07 AM   #23365
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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did u show the bluff? i have a bad habit of showing way too many bluffs, especially when i often limp in preflop in early position with hands like 56 suited, then make a huge limp reraise once a guy raises a small amount in later position i know doesnt have anything and is only trying to build a pot. i get away with this easily because they all know i will limp reraise aa and kk too
No way. I used to think it’s a bad thing to have a nit image, like I should be embarrassed about it or something, but then I realized this guy is just an ******* and most people don’t care if I “only” play 15-20% of hands as long as I’m pleasant to be around and talk to people.

A nit image is one of the best images to have if people will respect you in large pots, IMO.
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Old 03-23-2019, 11:34 AM   #23366
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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If people are playing tighter you will get more hands per hour because each hand takes less time, but how in the world can more hands per hour make people play tighter?
Live psychology. Most people aren't following strict preflop rules. Whether they play a hand or not depends on a few factors, one of which is how long it's been since they've played a hand. Nobody wants to go to the casino and play one hand an hour, even if doing so would be "correct" given the cards/situation.

I doubt it's enough of a difference to measure typically -- my basis for believing in this effect comes from playing a little while on e-tables, which dealt 50-60 hands/hour vs 25-30 -- and I don't think it was a coincidence that the average player was about twice as tight, which made the average player's preflop frequencies closer to correct (~15% vs ~30% vpip full-ring), which made it damn hard to beat the rake.
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:19 AM   #23367
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

DK, I doubt anyone is changing their preflop range due to only getting a "horrible" 27 hands per hour instead of an "awesome" 30.

GimoG
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:24 AM   #23368
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Not consciously. But most players have a range of "maybe" hands. This range is probably wider for recs than for pros but virtually everyone has it. You're the only poster I thought of who probably doesn't.

Fewer hands/hour -> more likely to go long without playing a hand -> more likely to dip into the maybe range -> higher vpip

I'm not going to so far to say that fewer hands is better, only that it's not a 1:1 reduction to your hourly.
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Old 03-25-2019, 10:18 PM   #23369
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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DK, I doubt anyone is changing their preflop range due to only getting a "horrible" 27 hands per hour instead of an "awesome" 30.

GimoG
The effect of 27 vs 30 would be minimal but I've seen games with 60 hands an hour and 10 hands an hour. People definitely play more hands the slower the action, because it is boring as hell to play 1 hand an hour or in your case VPIPing 4% you'd play more like 1 hand every 3 hours. Imagine if you're card dead. Boredom tilt is real. Unless you're a total robot ranges are fluid and depend on a variety of variables, one of which is hands per hour. This effect is small compared to certain other variables e.g. table average VPIP, but it should not be ignored, and the correlation between hands/hour and winrate is certainly not linear.

In fact those 15 hand an hour games are sometimes better than the 60.
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:02 AM   #23370
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

I'll agree that if your table can fluctuate from 60 hands per hour (really?) to 10 (??) then, yeah, that'll cause people to VPIP more. I've never seen a table at either of those immense extremes. So I stand by comment that no one is changing their VPIP at a table that was doing a normalish ~30 and is now doing a slightly less than normal ~27 thanks to extra dealer responsibilities, and thus the ~10% reduction in hands will almost directly co-relate to a ~10% reduction in winrate.

I'll also agree that the fewer hands you are seeing dealt an hour is likely an indication of a good table (more people seeing flops/turns/rivers and paying off). But it still doesn't change my opinion that, all things being equal, having the dealer have extra responsibilities (money-to-chip transactions) that reduces the number of hands per hour is not a good thing.

GcluelesshandsperhournoobG
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:38 AM   #23371
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Telling a player that busted to go to the cage and wait on line to buy more chips is vastly worse for the game than the few fewer hands dealt an hour if the dealer is selling chips. I've seen plenty of guys stand up and walk right out of the room past the cage instead of sitting and punting another BI. Hell *I'VE* left a game because of that bull**** and went across the street to play.

This is doubly true if the player is tiliting.
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:41 AM   #23372
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Our game used to have chip runners (and sometimes still does when staff is available); the dealer simply yells "chips" while he keeps his head down and goes about his business, and meanwhile the chip runner comes over and does the money-to-chip transaction (keeping the player easily in the game).

Gitain'trocketscienceG
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:11 PM   #23373
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Chip runners obv is best. At one Casio (Philly, IIRC) they actually had a chip cart rolling around selling chips like some sort of ice cream pushcart at the park.
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:12 PM   #23374
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Our game used to have chip runners (and sometimes still does when staff is available); the dealer simply yells "chips" while he keeps his head down and goes about his business, and meanwhile the chip runner comes over and does the money-to-chip transaction (keeping the player easily in the game).

Gitain'trocketscienceG
I think the key words here are "used to" and "sometimes". I agree that first buys "should" be at the cage to keep the game running and full re-buys are more valuable at the table just to keep the tilting players available. Maybe I should start buying extra black chips to help the cause as dealers do not sell chips in my normal rooms. We've lost many a tilting player that said they were coming back and had cash in hand. After locking up the seat for 15 minutes hoping they would return we often get a new fresh player. Or worse yet the fish returns and their seat is gone.
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:32 PM   #23375
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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I think the key words here are "used to" and "sometimes". I agree that first buys "should" be at the cage to keep the game running and full re-buys are more valuable at the table just to keep the tilting players available. Maybe I should start buying extra black chips to help the cause as dealers do not sell chips in my normal rooms. We've lost many a tilting player that said they were coming back and had cash in hand. After locking up the seat for 15 minutes hoping they would return we often get a new fresh player. Or worse yet the fish returns and their seat is gone.
One old room didn't have chip runners and the nearest cage was about a three minute walk to the pit. Most regular players kept several buyins in 100s/500s in their pockets for themselves and to sell to others. It was the only way to keep the game going.

Weird thing is the dealers had floats of 3k but weren't allowed to sell chips. Just so they could be the big stack at the table I guess
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