Include HHs/ small promos in "rakeback" gametype. It should go on your overall hourly (i.e. how much did i make playing poker total) but for no specific game/limit. Don't include BBJ/big promos.

/thread

If we get to include "rakeback" or "comps" paid to the player that is convertible to cash because its money earned while playing poker, then Im making a bit more than $4/hr more than what my win rate shows.

If Im counting total money in my pocket, then Yes, I should count it. I mean I pull in over $500/month from "rakeback". Obviously that money is paid to me and I spend it. I just never counted it in my stated win rate because the main reason any of us states our win rates here is to compare how we are doing compared to the field.

I really dont think it should be counted as far as "Hey guys, my win rate is X". Its not shown on any of my graphs that Ive posted. I dont track it in my poker app at all.

When people call 10BBs/hr a "crusher"..they aren't counting rakeback or player comps are they? I mean I get almost 1BB/hr in rakeback in my nitball room. I get no rakeback at all in another room I play in and I make more total money per hour there even without it.

Interesting takes guys thanks. I just figured that since there was no skill involved in hitting it that it shouldn't count. But seems like most disagree, so I will re-think.

Well the funny thing is that I actually hit two during my 6 hour session (Quad Jacks and then K high SF, my highest live hand ever) and yet was only ahead $62 total for the session at that point. Guess I played very poorly on all the other hands!

Exactly the same as my room and thinking about it I guess they should be included since we are paying for it.

Anyway, thanks for all the feedback everyone.

Shorn

Actually there is some skill hitting high hands. The problem is that the "skill" is contrary to making the highest EV plays overall. Lots of guys limp every single hand that can make a high hand and they do it from any positions. They limp all pocket pairs (even the premiums) because they dont want everyone to fold and they lose their shot at a HH. They also limp all suited connectors and gappers from anywhere.

They never bet a set, again, because people might all fold and they dont get to see the turn and river. These people will hit more HHs than good players but they lose tons of money or potential money, trying to hit them.

It's a great point Mike and actually why I love to play on days where my room has the promotion because do all kind's of stupid crap to try and hit one, either not understanding how much value they are losing by playing hands sub-optimally or clearly misjudging the odds of actually hitting one. What I meant was that I just happened to be in the "lucky seat" that day and therefore the extra $ I won wasn't due to my "skill" on those hands. I played them exactly the same as I would have all the time.

Funny thing was, on the quad Jacks hand, the pot was $155 or so on the river and I bet $65 when checked to in order to try and get additional value. V folded top/top (AK) and showed and said to me "why did you bet so much on the river? If I were you I would have been happy to just check it down knowing I had a high hand winner." LOL

Yeah, I mentioned that in a previous post above. I would say for profitable players, HH jackpots are probably -EV overall cause bad plays pre and post are more likely to hit the qualifying hands. All the HH jackpots I know are funded 100% by jackpot drops, so if the players are paying 100% of the cost, and some players are more likely to hit it than others (the worse ones), then it's just poker socialism/welfare.

What ends up being reality, though, is that it ends up not ultimately being poker socialism/welfare because it ends up giving more profit to the good players in the hands played. So while the jackpot drop itself is -EV for profitable players, the promotions in general are probably +EV. Even moreso at the 1/2 and 1/3 level.

It may make players play wider than normal though giving you a bigger edge in the game itself.

You’ve hit 48 high hands and think you’re about even EV wise?

I didnt say I was breakeven EV wise. Im not sure there's any way to measure how often you should hit a HH. A lot depends on how busy the room is and what the min. requirements are. I know a room that pays any full house as a min. I also know a room that pays an instant $130 for Aces full with no requirement for it to hold up for any time period.

I said I was about break even paying the $2/hand drop and winning HH money. If I win 2 hands/hr I pay $4/hr to the promos and Im around break even with what Ive won.

Sick ... thought I was unlucky … I have 6 or 7 in ~1800 hrs.

I once saw a woman lose about $1,000 at a 1/2 table playing like this, and openly admitting it. She lost a grand of her own money.

She also won 3 high hand prizes in that single session for a total of $1,000.

When I left the table she had $26 in front of her. Everyone at the table's win rate was padded by high hand money that day, even without winning one.

So how do we account for that? The more I think about these things, the less inclined I am to even care about tracking a win rate.

Last time I played 1/2, I raised a limper to $15 with some trash like T8s. The hand played out and I won a medium pot with TP of Tens and showed my hand down. The lady on the button wouldve beat me with JJ....but she folded preflop because "Quad Jacks with a King was already on the board"

Pure Gold. Get out the printing press!

Why do you need to account for this at all? They are playing how they want to play. You can't control that. You don't try to account for a drunk player spewing off chips in your winrate either. It just is what it is.

Besides, past results don't dictate future performance. Our winrate is merely a tool to help us understand our past performance

FYP?

That's kinda my point

Performance at what? Navigating poker hands profitably? Or game selection?

Fixed Your Post

There's so much nittery itt. Just track everything except giant promo wins like BBJs and be done with it. The fact that you can't account for Crazy Lady #142 is the same reason you can't trust a winrate after 50 hours of play. There are infinite variables impacting your winrate and the only remedy is collecting more and more data until all of those factors smooth out. The remedy is NOT trying to account for them.

I kind of agree with this, but I take it to an extreme. Why account for anything then?

What he hell would you DO with that information?

I have a bankroll for poker. It sits in the form of a pile of money in my sock drawer. I have a dollar amount in mind that I'm comfortable playing with, and with which I feel I am capable of enduring some multi-session downswings.

If the pile of money ever gets to be substantially more than that, I'll skim the excess and spend it. For example, I'm pulling out $1500 to take the family to the lake next week. I'm sure you'll all miss my posts here while I'm gone.

If the pile ever runs out, I'll stop playing.

So I don't know what my win rate is, but it's obviously a positive number as my sock drawer has never been empty. Beyond that, what does it matter what the exact number is? What would you DO with that information?

Yea, this whole debate seems like a trivial one. Record as much data as you can, in as much detail as you can. HH promos, hell even the BBJ hits if you want. Just keep them separate and include/exclude during the analysis stage as needed.

via Imgflip Meme Generator

Well, for one thing..the lower my win rate is the more willing I would be to accept the fact that I may be wrong about certain lines I take and I would make adjustments.

If I was a baseball player and my batting avg was .215 I would probably listen more to other players and coaches and try to fix my swing. If I was hitting .315 I probably wouldnt want to change much.

If I didnt know my batting avg, then how do I know if Im hitting well or not?

I deleted a couple of posts ITT. I don't know that they were related to yesterday's flame-war in another thread, but it could easily have been interpreted that way. I ask everyone to re-read the rules for this thread that you clicked "agree" on, and I remind folks that this thread is not for picking at each other. ELE!

Anyone who's even remotely serious about poker should be tracking their results. This shouldn't be a debate at all.