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Old 07-16-2018, 09:11 PM   #21951
johnny_on_the_spot
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*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Including high hands and excluding bad beat jackpot seems reasonable.


This is what I do. It's not unrealistic to assume you're gonna get a FH+ every now and again and get a little extra cash. It's pretty unrealistic to assume you're ever going to get quads+ and run into quads+

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Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
I think this is the consensus for normal $100-$500 HH promos. My follow up question was where do you draw the line? And so far I like samo's suggestion of scaling larger promos by hours played since you are still paying for them, without blowing up small sample sizes by adding 250 hrs of profit into a 500 hr sample size for example.


I wouldn't draw the line at $ amount, I'd draw it at the feasibility to win. If you play 500 hours, you should probably win at least 1 high hand promo. You could probably play 5k hours and never win a bad beat table share
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Old 07-16-2018, 09:15 PM   #21952
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
My sessions show date, start time, and length of session. Yours don't?
Wow no, what version do you have? I'm under Bankroll, in the session tab. The list of sessions only have Location, game type, date, and profit. I have to click each session to get additional details like play time, buy in, etc...
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Old 07-16-2018, 09:19 PM   #21953
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
This is what I do. It's not unrealistic to assume you're gonna get a FH+ every now and again and get a little extra cash. It's pretty unrealistic to assume you're ever going to get quads+ and run into quads+

I wouldn't draw the line at $ amount, I'd draw it at the feasibility to win. If you play 500 hours, you should probably win at least 1 high hand promo. You could probably play 5k hours and never win a bad beat table share
So how many HH are feasible in 500 hours? What about a hard cap on promo add-ons based on the promo rake and hours played? If the promo rake is 4/hr then cap win rate promo earnings at 8/hr for example?
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Old 07-16-2018, 09:52 PM   #21954
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

I hit 1 high hand in my first 3000 hours or so. Also knew a guy that would hit 4-5 every month they were offered. Like most things in poker, the variance involved can be hard to wrap your head around.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:06 PM   #21955
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
So how many HH are feasible in 500 hours? What about a hard cap on promo add-ons based on the promo rake and hours played? If the promo rake is 4/hr then cap win rate promo earnings at 8/hr for example?
After about 4000ish hours, Ive hit a high hand every 84 hours. Its worked out to $4.02/hr in high hand money (after 7-10% tips that I give on HH money). My guess is Ive probably broken even in high hand promos.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:11 PM   #21956
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*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
After about 4000ish hours, Ive hit a high hand every 84 hours. Its worked out to $4.02/hr in high hand money (after 7-10% tips that I give on HH money). My guess is Ive probably broken even in high hand promos.


I would postulate that playing daytime hours would result in more high hands due to less active tables
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:18 PM   #21957
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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I would postulate that playing daytime hours would result in more high hands due to less active tables
Possibly, but you still have to hit Aces full or better to even qualify where I play.

Do you mean I have a better chance of hitting a high hand because I get to play more hands due to the games being less aggro in general or that when I hit a high hand that qualifies, I have less of a chance of it being beaten since there's less tables running? Or both?
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:23 PM   #21958
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Possibly, but you still have to hit Aces full or better to even qualify where I play.



Do you mean I have a better chance of hitting a high hand because I get to play more hands due to the games being less aggro in general or that when I hit a high hand that qualifies, I have less of a chance of it being beaten since there's less tables running? Or both?


The latter. More tables running = more overall hands being seen and hour in the room = higher chance of bigger hands being hit.

The former could also come into play though.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:31 PM   #21959
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
The latter. More tables running = more overall hands being seen and hour in the room = higher chance of bigger hands being hit.

The former could also come into play though.
You are probably correct.
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:28 PM   #21960
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

I'm in the camp that adds HHs and hot-seats to my win rate, but not a BB jackpot that isn't even a lock to be a once in a lifetime event. My main room did away with the BB, but runs high hand promos regularly. Most of them are in the $200-$500 range, so over a large sample size they shouldn't affect your hourly that much anyways. The room I play in actually takes $2 for the promo fund at $20 (once OTF). So when you're paying into that fund at a rate of $2 for pretty much every pot you drag over 1000+ hrs in a given year, you're often not even gong be "promo 0EV" at the end of a year when you balance the HHs you've hit against what you've paid into the fund, so I have no problem adding the ones you do hit to your hourly rate.

I didn't play nearly as much then, but I probably logged about 1k hours combined in '15-'16 and hit zero HHs and only $300 in hot seats over those two years. Obviously I contributed a lot more to the fund over that time period than I took out of it.
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:30 PM   #21961
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
My sessions show date, start time, and length of session. Yours don't?

-----

I'm still clueless about what to do with my comp dollars. I found out gift cards can actually be used for slot play but...turns out you can't buy gift cards with comp dollars. You can buy literally everything else they sell. But I guess they don't want people turning comp dollars that expire every 60 days into gift cards that don't expire. Man what a ripoff. Back to selling Oakleys for 40 cents on the dollar I guess.
There are several good to great restaurants at THR. Take a date out for a wonderful boondoggle meal 1x per month...ball out...then ball her. EZ game
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:43 PM   #21962
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

"...I wouldn't draw the line at $ amount, I'd draw it at the feasibility to win. If you play 500 hours, you should probably win at least 1 high hand promo. You could probably play 5k hours and never win a bad beat table share..."

Or you could play 1400 hours and win three plus the high end of another one.

((personal experience, your mileage may vary)
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Old 07-17-2018, 04:36 AM   #21963
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Include HHs/ small promos in "rakeback" gametype. It should go on your overall hourly (i.e. how much did i make playing poker total) but for no specific game/limit. Don't include BBJ/big promos.

/thread
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Old 07-17-2018, 08:24 AM   #21964
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by meale View Post
Include HHs/ small promos in "rakeback" gametype. It should go on your overall hourly (i.e. how much did i make playing poker total) but for no specific game/limit. Don't include BBJ/big promos.

/thread
If we get to include "rakeback" or "comps" paid to the player that is convertible to cash because its money earned while playing poker, then Im making a bit more than $4/hr more than what my win rate shows.

If Im counting total money in my pocket, then Yes, I should count it. I mean I pull in over $500/month from "rakeback". Obviously that money is paid to me and I spend it. I just never counted it in my stated win rate because the main reason any of us states our win rates here is to compare how we are doing compared to the field.

I really dont think it should be counted as far as "Hey guys, my win rate is X". Its not shown on any of my graphs that Ive posted. I dont track it in my poker app at all.

When people call 10BBs/hr a "crusher"..they aren't counting rakeback or player comps are they? I mean I get almost 1BB/hr in rakeback in my nitball room. I get no rakeback at all in another room I play in and I make more total money per hour there even without it.
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:00 AM   #21965
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Re: How to Handle High Hand promotions

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Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
Agreed as well, after reading Mike's comment in the other thread. It's a slippery slope though. I would still argue that the BBJ should be excluded even though you pay for that too. So at what point do you exclude? Clearly a 1/2 or 2/5 player bringing down a 100k+ BBJ will render the rest of your numbers pretty meaningless. Whereas a $500 High hand here or there is more fair compared to the extra rake.

And congrats Shorn, sounds like you were due!
Interesting takes guys thanks. I just figured that since there was no skill involved in hitting it that it shouldn't count. But seems like most disagree, so I will re-think.

Well the funny thing is that I actually hit two during my 6 hour session (Quad Jacks and then K high SF, my highest live hand ever) and yet was only ahead $62 total for the session at that point. Guess I played very poorly on all the other hands!
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:08 AM   #21966
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by branch0095 View Post
I'm in the camp that adds HHs and hot-seats to my win rate, but not a BB jackpot that isn't even a lock to be a once in a lifetime event. My main room did away with the BB, but runs high hand promos regularly. Most of them are in the $200-$500 range, so over a large sample size they shouldn't affect your hourly that much anyways. The room I play in actually takes $2 for the promo fund at $20 (once OTF). So when you're paying into that fund at a rate of $2 for pretty much every pot you drag over 1000+ hrs in a given year, you're often not even gong be "promo 0EV" at the end of a year when you balance the HHs you've hit against what you've paid into the fund, so I have no problem adding the ones you do hit to your hourly rate.

I didn't play nearly as much then, but I probably logged about 1k hours combined in '15-'16 and hit zero HHs and only $300 in hot seats over those two years. Obviously I contributed a lot more to the fund over that time period than I took out of it.
Exactly the same as my room and thinking about it I guess they should be included since we are paying for it.

Anyway, thanks for all the feedback everyone.

Shorn
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:12 AM   #21967
MikeStarr
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Actually there is some skill hitting high hands. The problem is that the "skill" is contrary to making the highest EV plays overall. Lots of guys limp every single hand that can make a high hand and they do it from any positions. They limp all pocket pairs (even the premiums) because they dont want everyone to fold and they lose their shot at a HH. They also limp all suited connectors and gappers from anywhere.

They never bet a set, again, because people might all fold and they dont get to see the turn and river. These people will hit more HHs than good players but they lose tons of money or potential money, trying to hit them.
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:29 AM   #21968
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Actually there is some skill hitting high hands. The problem is that the "skill" is contrary to making the highest EV plays overall. Lots of guys limp every single hand that can make a high hand and they do it from any positions. They limp all pocket pairs (even the premiums) because they dont want everyone to fold and they lose their shot at a HH. They also limp all suited connectors and gappers from anywhere.

They never bet a set, again, because people might all fold and they dont get to see the turn and river. These people will hit more HHs than good players but they lose tons of money or potential money, trying to hit them.
It's a great point Mike and actually why I love to play on days where my room has the promotion because do all kind's of stupid crap to try and hit one, either not understanding how much value they are losing by playing hands sub-optimally or clearly misjudging the odds of actually hitting one. What I meant was that I just happened to be in the "lucky seat" that day and therefore the extra $ I won wasn't due to my "skill" on those hands. I played them exactly the same as I would have all the time.

Funny thing was, on the quad Jacks hand, the pot was $155 or so on the river and I bet $65 when checked to in order to try and get additional value. V folded top/top (AK) and showed and said to me "why did you bet so much on the river? If I were you I would have been happy to just check it down knowing I had a high hand winner." LOL
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:33 AM   #21969
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Actually there is some skill hitting high hands. The problem is that the "skill" is contrary to making the highest EV plays overall. Lots of guys limp every single hand that can make a high hand and they do it from any positions. They limp all pocket pairs (even the premiums) because they dont want everyone to fold and they lose their shot at a HH. They also limp all suited connectors and gappers from anywhere.

They never bet a set, again, because people might all fold and they dont get to see the turn and river. These people will hit more HHs than good players but they lose tons of money or potential money, trying to hit them.
Yeah, I mentioned that in a previous post above. I would say for profitable players, HH jackpots are probably -EV overall cause bad plays pre and post are more likely to hit the qualifying hands. All the HH jackpots I know are funded 100% by jackpot drops, so if the players are paying 100% of the cost, and some players are more likely to hit it than others (the worse ones), then it's just poker socialism/welfare.

What ends up being reality, though, is that it ends up not ultimately being poker socialism/welfare because it ends up giving more profit to the good players in the hands played. So while the jackpot drop itself is -EV for profitable players, the promotions in general are probably +EV. Even moreso at the 1/2 and 1/3 level.
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:41 AM   #21970
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Yeah, I mentioned that in a previous post above. I would say for profitable players, HH jackpots are probably -EV overall cause bad plays pre and post are more likely to hit the qualifying hands. All the HH jackpots I know are funded 100% by jackpot drops, so if the players are paying 100% of the cost, and some players are more likely to hit it than others (the worse ones), then it's just poker socialism/welfare.

What ends up being reality, though, is that it ends up not ultimately being poker socialism/welfare because it ends up giving more profit to the good players in the hands played. So while the jackpot drop itself is -EV for profitable players, the promotions in general are probably +EV. Even moreso at the 1/2 and 1/3 level.
It may make players play wider than normal though giving you a bigger edge in the game itself.
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:51 AM   #21971
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
After about 4000ish hours, Ive hit a high hand every 84 hours. Its worked out to $4.02/hr in high hand money (after 7-10% tips that I give on HH money). My guess is Ive probably broken even in high hand promos.
You’ve hit 48 high hands and think you’re about even EV wise?
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Old 07-17-2018, 12:25 PM   #21972
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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You’ve hit 48 high hands and think you’re about even EV wise?
I didnt say I was breakeven EV wise. Im not sure there's any way to measure how often you should hit a HH. A lot depends on how busy the room is and what the min. requirements are. I know a room that pays any full house as a min. I also know a room that pays an instant $130 for Aces full with no requirement for it to hold up for any time period.

I said I was about break even paying the $2/hand drop and winning HH money. If I win 2 hands/hr I pay $4/hr to the promos and Im around break even with what Ive won.
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Old 07-17-2018, 12:32 PM   #21973
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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I hit 1 high hand in my first 3000 hours or so. Also knew a guy that would hit 4-5 every month they were offered. Like most things in poker, the variance involved can be hard to wrap your head around.
Sick ... thought I was unlucky … I have 6 or 7 in ~1800 hrs.
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Old 07-17-2018, 12:36 PM   #21974
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Actually there is some skill hitting high hands. The problem is that the "skill" is contrary to making the highest EV plays overall. Lots of guys limp every single hand that can make a high hand and they do it from any positions. They limp all pocket pairs (even the premiums) because they dont want everyone to fold and they lose their shot at a HH. They also limp all suited connectors and gappers from anywhere.

They never bet a set, again, because people might all fold and they dont get to see the turn and river. These people will hit more HHs than good players but they lose tons of money or potential money, trying to hit them.
I once saw a woman lose about $1,000 at a 1/2 table playing like this, and openly admitting it. She lost a grand of her own money.

She also won 3 high hand prizes in that single session for a total of $1,000.

When I left the table she had $26 in front of her. Everyone at the table's win rate was padded by high hand money that day, even without winning one.

So how do we account for that? The more I think about these things, the less inclined I am to even care about tracking a win rate.
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Old 07-17-2018, 12:40 PM   #21975
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Last time I played 1/2, I raised a limper to $15 with some trash like T8s. The hand played out and I won a medium pot with TP of Tens and showed my hand down. The lady on the button wouldve beat me with JJ....but she folded preflop because "Quad Jacks with a King was already on the board"
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