in 2022 everyone will say we were so spoiled in 2017 when the games were so good!

then theyll say it again in 2027

Yea we dont have much to worry about until 2049 when the replicants dominate live poker imo

I played last night (tuesday) where it can be argued 3 of the 9 at the table barely knew the hand rankings. Poker ain't dead, folks.

The day I made those posts I ended up making $4k playing 2/5 and 1/3 and I've made another $4k since so my gut feeling is that the games are still beatable.

I'm not questioning whether stuff like this still happens. It clearly does.

The question is whether it happens at the same frequency as before. Ditto for how often the table you are sitting at is very meh as compared to before.

Ghavingawhalesitinyourgamenowonceevery5sessionsins teadofonceevery2sessionslikebeforeisgoingtohaveade vastatingeffectonyourbottomlineG

The games are tougher than they used to be. I think we can take that as fact. Why are we still discussing it at length?

The thing to discuss is how to adjust and beat the tougher games and continue to win at close to the same win rate as we used to, instead of continuing to play the same way we always have and crying about our lower win rate and higher rake. That's not helping.

And my argument is that most people are delusional if they think this is possible.

GimoG

When I first read this I disagreed. Second take, the word 'most' next to people. So your saying it is possible. But we are taking about 1. winnings players 2. winning players that are capable of winning in tough games. Which requires opening up your game to extreme variance and doing things most winning players would never be capable of. That what you mean by most?

What we know 100% is not possible is to continue playing the same way you always have in tougher games than you used to play in, and expect to win the same amount.

Waiting for an overpair to stack TP or waiting for a set to stack an overpair will not work anymore. Well, it works, but you wont win as much as you used to.

What we should be doing is to make whatever adjustments to our game that we can to increase our win rates in these tougher games. It can be done if you open your mind and open up your game. It cant be done if you keep playing the same way.

Im not saying your win rate can be the same as it used to be in these tougher games. Im saying it doesn't have to drop significantly. It can be pretty close. You just have to play better than your opponents which is is tougher than it used to be and takes a lot more imagination. You have to exploit people weaknesses and tendencies. ABC play isnt going to get it anymore.

+1, good post.

Just want to add that ABC play or strong fundamentals never gets old, even though i know in what context youre using the term ABC. You have to be willing to mix up your lines- not giving the overpairs the chance of herofolding by autoraising your bottom set on the 2-4-9 rainbow flop when facing a C bet.

At least at small stakes like 1-2 or 2-5, you get a pretty huge edge only by not limp calling 3-4 suited or Q10 off from UTG, or to not C bet AQ 4 ways on 7-8-9 flop after raising pre. Stupid -EV **** that i see my opponents doing over and over and over again no matter where i play.

In a world where people put so much stuff from Doug Polk (GTO,balance,range merging, having 32,4 percent bluffs and so on in our range) and other youtubers into the wrong context- like people want to run before they learned to walk properly and the approach to the game get more and more complex: strong fundamentals raises its value in my opinion.

+2.

I'm nowhere near a crusher, but my WR today in bigger, deeper games is higher than it was when I was playing $1/2. I've studied a lot off the felt and am lucky to have friends who are willing to review hands with me. I feel I work harder off the felt than most of my player pool and I have reaped the rewards.

GG, if a dumbass spazz whale type like me can improve, so can you. However, I feel you're not open to learning new concepts and thus your WR has stagnated.

I'm on board with the majority of this post (really, I am).

I simply don't agree with the line you said about your winrate not having to drop significantly / can still be pretty close. My guess is the long term will prove that (if it's provable, it would admittedly be pretty hard to track).

But other than that, yeah, doesn't mean we should roll over and don't have lots of room to get better.

ETA: For example, let's say your snowbirds didn't come back to roost in your game and the games remain kinda meh like they were for the summer (if I've read your PG&C right). Still the rosy outlook, just gotta roll up those sleeves more?

GcluelesswinratesnoobG

Do you think it's fair comparing the results in your bigger deeper games (which I fully admit I would not have a handle on whatsover) versus the smaller BI rake trap of $1/2?

I'm simply comparing the same stakes / BI vs itself x years ago, that's all.

GcluelessstakesnoobG

Well yeah, it helps that the min and max BI are bigger and the rake is a smaller % of the blinds. The flip side is variance in all its forms: less fold equity, being put in tougher spots vs players who make less big mistakes less often, etc.

I played a bit of 1/2 last night waiting for a 2/5 seat to open up and the game was significantly softer than any meh 2/5 game. Ranges were much wider and more easily punished.

If I had to guess, you would be better off adjusting by playing a wider value range given how loose your game plays. You may not get 85/15s as often, but your 60/40 scenarios will come more often.

Ah this derail. Has it been a month already?

I keep hearing about this rake trap 1/2 game but I keep destroying it. Rake be damned. The players are so face up, so passive, so spewy compared to 2/5 that it more than makes up for the rake being higher percentage wise. I'm finding it harder and harder to drag myself away from the 12 games to play 2/5.

Even during the summer, the 1/2 games are laughably soft. At least once you get used to 2/5 and 5/10 games. Most guys have giant egos and will never move down but for me, I dont care what people think. Dealer after dealer steps into the box and asks me "what are you doing here?" or "this is 1/2?" after seeing me there. I dont care. I go where the money is.

Every time I go to Vegas the 1/2 games are filled with tourists. Ive seen plenty of people playing in the evenings in Vegas that dont even know what a straddle is. They are as soft as my 1/2 games.

You serious? after playing bigger games I can't stand the way 1/2 games play sometimes, no action and I find myself literally calling crazy raises with any type of equity because not caring about the money.. winning one pot in my 5/10 game is like stacking 3 people in 1/2 lol

The 2/5 and 5/10 games are filled with whales also..

Hear this all the time from my circle and I never felt or understood it. Doesn't matter if its a 1/2 game, 10nl game online, 3 rebuy mtt or 10k mtt... i'm always trying to make the best decision each street. That is what gets my rocks off.

You have to remember that I play in S. Florida and its very seasonal here. During the summer you cant even find a 5/10 game. If you try hard enough you may find one once a week somewhere, but not necessarily where you want to play. The 2/5 games are reg/nit filled at least during the daytime. This sounds hard to believe but I honestly believe the 1/2 games during the summer are more profitable than the 2/5. Im talking in pure dollars terms. Not in terms of BBs.

When the snow birds arrive, its like an entirely different game. They are arriving now and the 5/10 games have picked back up already. The 2/5 games are much better already and the 1/2 is still a friggin gold mine.

I'm having a hard time pulling myself away from the evening/weekend 1/2 games. If I posted my win rate I would be called a liar.

If that's the case, then sure, no problem going where the money is and damn the stakes; it's a good strat for sure.

My lol low stakes 1/3 NL simply doesn't sound like your game filled with clueless noobs ("plenty of people not even knowing what a straddle is", wtf, I can't even conceive of encountering an opponent like this). Yeah, it's the lowest stakes going in my room. But it's also the only stakes going in the room, and it's a 100% reg filled game, with most players having played just as many or more hours than I have.

All I'm recounting is the experience I've gone thru and my game has gone thru. Doesn't sound like that's the case in your game, and that's fine.

Geveryone'sexperienceisdifferentG

GG ... I think your city just sucks more than the rest of ours does.

Time to retire to FL

yeah gg your game just sounds awful tbh. while mike's games otoh appear to be extremely good.

Last time out I had someone raise to $12 with JTs, see a shortstack shove for $60, and then snap call my QQ $200 limp/shove. It can still be *very* good at times, and it is still beatable overall; hope I'm not making it out to be otherwise. It's just not as good as it was before.

Basically, to bring it more full circle with what this thread is all about (i.e. winrates), it will simply be very interesting to see everyone's giraffe 5 years from now if they are still playing in the same game (like I am doing). I didn't quite heed warnings that some in this forum offered me, those who had obviously been around the block and seen their game go thru the same evolution that all games will go thru, and questioned the long term survivability of my ~somewhat impressive winrate at lol ~2000 hours. I now understand their warnings a lot better now. Simply a cautionary tale, and it is my belief that most long term winrates will reflect this evolution within the ~same game.

GwhoIamkidding,thisissimplyanefforttobringRichardP arkeroutofthewoodworkinordertotellme"Itoldyouso!"G