1/03 3:39 +30bb
1/06 3:05 +200bb
1/08 5:08 0bb
1/12 5:17 -55bb
1/15 3:34 +100bb
1/16 4:16 +19bb
1/17 3:29 +71bb
1/23 1:48 +103bb

15.5bb/hr
total 30 hours
+468bb

Just getting back into playing after not playing for a few years. Small sample I know, but happy to start off on the right foot. Haven't been playing too aggressively. Typically playing after work, the shorter sessions tend to work better for me. Start to lose my focus at the 3 hour mark

Very impressive

Very nicely done! I suppose I'll share my most recent week or so.

1.13 6:45 +150BB
1.17 3:50 +182.5BB
1.19 5:30 +25BB
1.20 6:30 -10BB
1.23 2:45 +50BB
1.23 3:55 +55BB (2/5 - all others were 1/2)

29:15
+452.5BB
15.47BB/hour

The discussion of AIEV has been purged from the thread.
If anyone doesn't like it, tough.

You are allowed to disagree, but not not in the win-rate thread.

Some of the comments that were posted with regard to it previously could have resulted in a ban from the winrate thread, so instead I've removed them and banned no one. Seems fair.

Are there any discussions of the impact of rake that can be linked to? My local has a $8/hand (10%+bbj drop) which seems insane for a 1/2 game

It comes up here occasionally in regard to winrate, but the primary discussion is over at: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...hread-1045503/

It's interesting that your winrate (in terms of bb/hand) would need to be double that of a NL winrate in order to achieve the same hourly because you're getting about half the hands.

Not saying it isn't possible to more than double a NL w/r at the same stake PLO, just interesting to me.

Well, PLO generally tends to play bigger than NL for the same blind structure (yea, I know it's weird) and has deeper stacks. A $1/2 PLO usually has a $5 bring in, and stacks around $500-600 (or deeper).

Where is this highway robbery at?

Every room in S. Florida rakes $5 +$2 even at 1/2 for $7 max. I wouldnt say $8 is insane.

I'm truly interested in this as I've dabbled in PLO. I've also read both of Jeff Huang's books. And as I've dialed back my live hours the past year or so I've considered whether I should make an effort to play more PLO.

Mods if broaching the subject of PLO winrates is out of bounds let me know but I'm interested in the context of a NL players WR....

But Yeah as for the quoted I mean 1/2+5 bringin at my casino when it runs is 500 cap (occasionally a deep 1k cap). Comparing that to standard 1/2 300 cap isn't really equivalent blind structure IMO.

They sometimes run 1/2 no bringin. I'm not sure even the buy in cap for that as I've never played but that game plays maybe half as big from my casual observation.

I think a fair comparison might be 2/5 or 1/3 500 cap NL to the 1/2+5 500 cap PLO from my experience in my room.

The true comparison I suppose would be whatever NL stake one is reasonably bankrolled for vs a PLO game they are bankrolled for with a similar risk of ruin.

And the size of the bb probably is only one variable as important as that is. BI cap, bring ins not to mention straddles, rocks etc and how well rolled opponents are is going to drive how big the game plays.

So I guess that's really what I'm getting at. Is the low hanging fruit in live PLO such that a "similarly sized" (loosely interpret as needed) PLO game going to generate a bigger hourly for a solid PLO player given the reduction in hands/hr. ?

Fwiw my 2/2 PLO Winrate is materially higher than my 2/5 Winrate since MDL opened with about 2k hours total. Prob 1200 ish nlhe rest PLO. Not a big sample but still a thing I suppose.

Std as you may imagine is significantly higher too




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Right? I thought about this too and honestly the hand/hour is the only thing keeping me from solo plo. 1 because of the winrate thing but 2 bc HOLY SH*T 14 hands/hour

*I realize that in those 14 hands there is significantly more action that in 30 NL hands, but again, HOLY SH*T 14 hands per hour

That is interesting. Stupid question but how does 2/2 work, is there a 5 bring in?

Do they have dedicated plo dealers?

Do you coach bruh?

164 hour update.

I think keeping track of sessions is making me obsessed with my win rate going up or down. It's probably low self esteem and being conditioned to attach self worth to a number. I dont think its healthy.

I've made some very memorable bad plays these last few days. Still up a good number and seemingly crushing the game but quite disappointed in spewing off like 700 bbs over a few hands.

All 3-5 unless noted.

1-16 8h19m +3757
1-16 55m -542 (5/5/10 plo)
1-17 11h44m +1985
1-18 9h50m +1391
1-20 13h14m +212
1-21 14h37m +2200
1-23 13m -127 (plo)
1-23 11h46m +1822

Having a good month overall
+28899 in 164h12m33s

I'm phasing poker out of my life again. Over the last few months I've been able to pay off about 30k in credit cards, give my parents a few gs each, and save up a bunch of cash.I'm very grateful for poker and at the same time it's not a long term thing for me. Poker can be depressing. There's no value added to society. Poker tables are filled with some of the slimiest people in town. People don't want other people to be happy. Too much small mindedness and gossip and backstabbing. Too much jealousy and meanness. Too few genuine smiles.

I'll probably play a few more sessions over the next couple weeks and then call it quits for a while. Going to live a peaceful simple life in Guatemala for a while. Meditate do yoga live by the lake spend some time in retreat.

Thanks for listening guys. I'm sorry if I come off pessimistic or jaded or cynical but the people who have played for a living im certain can relate to parts of what I'm feeling. And thank you for all the discussion and strategy help. It's definitely improved my game tremendously.

That's a really killer month. If I won half of that in a full-time month I'd be ecstatic. I'm curious what your SD is.

I've been playing as my source of income for about a year. Thankfully I don't relate to any of that stuff at all. Poker has never felt depressing. The people I play with are generally friendly and definitely not "slimy." No idea what "small mindedness, gossip and backstabbing" refers to. I don't care that it "adds nothing to society." I can do that in my free time if I choose to.

Really the only big negative with poker for me is that the swings are kind of stressful.

Yeah, the cash is nice. No idea about std. It's probably on the lower end, I don't make too many big bluffs anymore. I do play draws strongly though and put lots of pressure on people. I've been bluff raising rivers more often vs people who fold too often and a scare card comes out. It's amazing how often people fold. But I think I'm General my game has become lower variance except for the few times a month where I spew like a dummy.

As to the other stuff: maybe I've played a bit too much but poker isn't so fun for me any more. Winning is super standard and doesn't raise my happiness levels much. Losing sucks still and even though i don't experience losing too much any more it still affects my ability to be friendly with people and in general exude joy.

Recently I've been having to pep talk myself into going to the casino. Casinos are not the most pleasant places to be. Lots of degenerates (probably myself included to some extent). It's just a sad place to be most of the time. It's the same story all the time. The same type of gossip. The same type of talk about bad beats and wishing for a jackpot. I feel this inner tightness often when the thought of sitting at the table for hours arises. The body knows when something is not the best for itself.

Being known as the biggest winner in the game has its pros and cons. The dealers and floor all love me bc I'm very kind to them and always help keep the game moving fast. But some of the other regs just avoid me in general and seem unhappy when I'm at the table. It's not the best feeling to know people are running away from me. I want people to like me and be friendly. I want to be someone who others want to be around.

Slimy comes is different forms. Gossiping, talking bad about others, angle shooting, smoking cigarettes every 30 minutes and coming back reeking, bad hygeine, needling, making people feel bad, celebrating winning pots, slowrolling, making others show a losing hand after someone says good call or you win. All these things I consider not pleasant to be around. It's mostly smallmindedness as in selfish and mean.

As to adding benefit to society, maybe I mean more it doesn't bring anybody true joy. It doesn't lead to better health, happier humans, better families. I notice it in myself. Winning no longer makes me happy. I always look back at the wrong decisions I made and am hard on myself for it. We don't need more hardness and hard human beings. Softness and easy goingness is where true happiness lies. For me poker makes me neither soft not easy going.

Everyone is a coach now bra. No bring in but at least 50% of the time there is a $5 straddle on. In that case the full pot open is 19 obv. Some dealers will just let it be 20. Min buyin is 100; Max 500. At any given time there is prob 7-8k on table with a few OMC just nut peddling their dwindling stacks

Dealers are generally good. There are usually at least 3 PLO games going (2 2/2 and 1 5/5) often with more of those and weekend 10/25.



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Hard to respond as I wish without risking a temp ban for straying off topic too much. All I'll say is, you seem very young and inexperienced in the game of life. You will experience much of what you are describing no matter how you choose to make a living.

You want fries with that? I'll do a deep dive and circle back.

FWIW I agree alot with what he says and to keep it to winrates, I'd say it has alot to do with area and room.

I'd play poker as a breakeven player recreationally in Daytona. I'd need to make $300 an hour to play in Hialeah.

You just run into different groups and different types of people in different places, and while some places are casual and fun, many are scummy. In my experience.

I have actually sacrificed wr to play in rooms I prefer (but theorethically maybe not bc I'm not on tilt or I'm safer in the parking lot etc.)

I actually think I'm overexaggerating here as to the people aspect. There are a few people I'm very friendly with -- there are a couple hedge fund guys that run multibillion dollar funds that are really awesome guys. They play relatively well too so my wr suffers when they're at the table. But they are real pleasant to be around. A couple other guys who do this recreationally and splash around, real fun guys, even when they complain about bad beats, I can deal with. And sometimes I have a chuckle inside.

It's actually amazing because if some people like you, they will tell you how they play in great detail, and they'll tell you what they had or show you their cards.

It's just the few regulars who have bad etiquette that gets on my nerves. Like theres this one guy, let's call him g. When he tilts he spews off literally 4-6 buy-ins in a few hours. He's good for wr and I've owned him in the past. But he's an angleshooter and slowroller. Every chance he gets hell try to push the rules. BUT as soon as another person does something he doesn't like, he'll call them out on it and especially when it's his money on the line, he'll call floor.

He doesn't like me now because I called him out on it in front of the whole table several times once. And he was whining to the floor saying (literally), "he can't tell people what I'm doing." I get happy when I see him lose. That's an unwholesome state of mind, to be happy for another's person's pain.

Another thing that is bad for my emotional winrate is people coming back reeking of smoke. It's something I'll never really get over I guess bc it's just such an unpleasant smell.

As to my being inexperienced in life: yes relative to people who are older. I'm late 20s. ive probably traveled more than most people will in their entirr lives. I've run my own businesses. I used to tutor lots of kids. I've worked in silicon valley in a startup. I think what's most shaped me is being around monks and meditating with spiritual masters. I will always remember their purity and generosity and kindness and love. I yearn to be authentic myself and the first step is to remove myself from environments where deception and hatred are the norms.

And I really think emotional winrate is an important idea. We have to live with ourselves and if we are not happy, no matter how much money we have, were going to have regrets. I'd rather live a life without regret.

And another thing I miss is working in groups and teams. There's something about poker that makes us extremely self centered. It's every man for himself and it feels animalistic at times. There are different types of intelligence and while intellectual and mathematical ability can lead to higher winrates, i think emotional intelligence and relational intelligence lead to a happier life. Not to say that the latter are not used in poker, but I see mine declining the more I play. Gotta put a stop to it.

This 100%, happens to me nearly every day. There's so much equity in just being a nice person -- not only for yourself but for the poker economy as a whole. Especially important for winning players to set an example and shun anybody who creates a negative atmosphere.

sorry, had to call you out on that



Yeah I agree with both of these, I have a very similar experience as well -- though I can at least pinpoint where the happiness derives from. It's not necessarily his pain that causes me joy, but rather the more he loses the less likely it is I have to see him next time, and I would be very happy if he just never played their again. He always makes the game very unpleasant, single handedly.

I would say yes because of the sheer number of pots that exceed 200bb. At a really good NL game on a weekend night, maybe you see 4 per hour? In every PLO I've ever played in, at least three people are ai for stacks at least 4 times per DOWN.

Also every hand is limped min 6 eays, and opens are generally flatted at least 4-5 ways. No one except the good regs are.doing anything other than potting, so things bloat quickly.

I played an 800bb pot where we got 750bb of it In ott, because I checked back top set on Q83r, against KJ33r.

We were just talking about swings, so just I ran up $890 in 9 hours, then immediately down $850 in the next 9 hours. #StillSlightlyAhead.

Frustrating when our $1/2 games switch to RxR then straight PLO and I'm not rolled to get into the game for $1500 in a night. Saw a $2500+ pot get shipped to two flopped pair in PLO last night. Action like that easily makes up for the decrease in hand count.

This is making me want to play PLO so bad. What kind of a bankroll is necessary to play 1|2|5, 1000 cap, for example? Is it really nitty to want $50k?

Not nitty at all. Easy to lose 5-10k in a day.

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