Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-09-2016, 01:30 PM   #13251
Mr Sandbag
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 251
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

The value of deeper stacks doesn't only come from villains punting their stacks when we have a value hand though.
Mr Sandbag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 01:33 PM   #13252
Illmatikk
centurion
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 182
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

I guess it makes more sense to just buy in for 300 and see whether I'm significantly better than anyone deeper than I am, or if any good players are deep as well, and just determine whether topping off to 500 is worth it based on each new session/table.

But there are definitely plenty of bad players who will stack off 150bb+ at these stakes.
Illmatikk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 01:44 PM   #13253
YGOchamp
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,425
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
It takes literally 1 hand for $300 starting stack to be $500...

I really don't understand people's obsession with buying in max, other than some sort of ego related issue.
Peronsally I try to always match the 100% of the big stack buyin, primarily for ego related issues. I never actually use my stack or make any big bets, but I feel like a big man. And isn't that what poker is all about?
YGOchamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 02:14 PM   #13254
Richard Parker
banned
 
Richard Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right Side of Variance
Posts: 13,985
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Yep, why else do losing players play?
Richard Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 02:48 PM   #13255
squid face
ChatThreadPrez
 
squid face's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: cloudbase! Aint no time 4 gravity
Posts: 7,456
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Sure, most losing players do quit.

But have you ever met a losing player?

hey. I dont keep track of my results per se...but I do pretty well in the games. I win more often than i lose and I know I am better than most players here.
squid face is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 02:56 PM   #13256
bip!
Slow Pony
 
bip!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: not on urban dictionary...
Posts: 13,011
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Funny that the thread spends a lot of time talking about how to get rid of variance... yet variance is the only reason poker thrives. We should really thank and celebrate variance.

2/9 - official variance appreciation day henceforth
bip! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 02:57 PM   #13257
ZippyThePinhead
adept
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 821
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Does anyone have enough data to show if win rate is different between a 1/2 300 cap game versus 1/3 300 cap game?

Assume similar player pool and players in pool buy in for same amount regardless of it being 1/2 and 1/3.

Most of my hours are logged at 1/2 and I'm very happy with my results. Generally I find most profitable games for me are deepest relative to the blinds. Shorter the stacks, the simplier the game is as decisions are pre-flop and on the flop. The deeper we are, the bigger my edge against typical players in my pool. Using that logic makes me think the 1/2 is more profitable.


Basically I'm hoping someone else has enough real data to get an idea without having to invest 1000k of my own hours in the 1/3 game to answer for myself.


Sent from my SM-T320 using 2+2 Forums
ZippyThePinhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 03:00 PM   #13258
bip!
Slow Pony
 
bip!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: not on urban dictionary...
Posts: 13,011
*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippyThePinhead View Post
Does anyone have enough data to show if win rate is different between a 1/2 300 cap game versus 1/3 300 cap game?

Assume similar player pool and players in pool buy in for same amount regardless of it being 1/2 and 1/3.

Most of my hours are logged at 1/2 and I'm very happy with my results. Generally I find most profitable games for me are deepest relative to the blinds. Shorter the stacks, the simplier the game is as decisions are pre-flop and on the flop. The deeper we are, the bigger my edge against typical players in my pool. Using that logic makes me think the 1/2 is more profitable.


Basically I'm hoping someone else has enough real data to get an idea without having to invest 1000k of my own hours in the 1/3 game to answer for myself.


Sent from my SM-T320 using 2+2 Forums

I think the min buy or typical buy in would determine which game is better. If the 1/2 has a $40 min and the 1/3 has a $60, etc. Or if the player pool buys in $200 @ 1/3 vs $100 @1/2..

Also what is the typical open raise? 1/3 can be $15 while 1/2 is $10, etc.

I would say a pretty safe bet sight-unseen that the 1/3 has better potential WR.
bip! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 04:22 PM   #13259
ZippyThePinhead
adept
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 821
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by bip! View Post
I think the min buy or typical buy in would determine which game is better. If the 1/2 has a $40 min and the 1/3 has a $60, etc. Or if the player pool buys in $200 @ 1/3 vs $100 @1/2..

Also what is the typical open raise? 1/3 can be $15 while 1/2 is $10, etc.

I would say a pretty safe bet sight-unseen that the 1/3 has better potential WR.
You are asking the questions I think are most important to decide which game.

Both are 100-300 buy in.

Based on my very small sample in the 1/3, opens and average buy in seem to be about the same.

Casinos are very close together, so at least potential geographic player pools are fairly equivalent. Honestly I believe 80% of the folks in the player pool wouldn't consciously adjust their buy in differently between the 2 games. Player A is comfortable buying in for 200, that is what he starts with in either of the games. Player b is fine with 300 so that is what he starts with.

I'd be more tempted to log a few hundred hours in the local 1/300 if I could buy in for 500.

One other key difference is the 1/300 allows for Mississippi straddle. I'm all for straddling on the button to make the game bigger when I have best position. Downside is with 100bb cap buy in, that straddle makes effective stacks often just 50bb or less, further diminishing my skill edge. (Or the edge my ego thinks I have)



Sent from my SM-T320 using 2+2 Forums
ZippyThePinhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 04:49 PM   #13260
Richard Parker
banned
 
Richard Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right Side of Variance
Posts: 13,985
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

1000 hours each, 2 - 3bb difference for me. 2/5 60bb max vs 3/5 100bb max.
Richard Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 05:13 PM   #13261
feel wrath
The Situation
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: lost on the turn
Posts: 18,244
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
1000 hours each, 2 - 3bb difference for me. 2/5 60bb max vs 3/5 100bb max.
so you're losing less quickly at the 2/5?
feel wrath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 06:38 PM   #13262
Richard Parker
banned
 
Richard Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right Side of Variance
Posts: 13,985
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Got caught.
Richard Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 01:19 PM   #13263
RESTRAIN THIS
centurion
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 147
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
It takes literally 1 hand for $300 starting stack to be $500...

I really don't understand people's obsession with buying in max, other than some sort of ego related issue.
If you're the best player at the table, and you have a comfortable bankroll, why would you buy in for anything less than the max? I don't think people are obsessed with max buying or anything...I just know I'd be missing value by not buying in for the max, especially at capped games, like your typical 2/5 with a $500 or $600 max
RESTRAIN THIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 01:27 PM   #13264
Bluegrassplayer
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Bluegrassplayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: China
Posts: 36,011
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Better to buy in max from the start than top off to cover the fish ainec.

Having said that there's definitely situations where you shouldn't buy in max.
Bluegrassplayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 01:51 PM   #13265
Lapidator
LLSNL Frequent Flyer
 
Lapidator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Team AOC, only 12 years left!
Posts: 12,206
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

FWIW my buy in strat:

1) If I recognize and have history with at least half the players at the table, I buy in for the max.

2) If I'm playing in capped games in LA or LV, I buy in for the max, regardless of the lineup.

3) If I'm playing in uncapped games (e.g. Biloxi), I buy in for what is about equal to the smallest stack at the table, or 100bb, whichever is larger.

4) If I'm playing at places where the average player in the pool is not terrible (E.g. Seattle, Foxwoods, etc.) I buy in for 50-70bb.

5) Home games I buy in for the max, or cover the largest stack.

None of these are hard rules and can be bent or broken at any time.

I typically buy in using $25 chips only, and always carry more $25 or $100 chips to top off.
Lapidator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 02:07 PM   #13266
ZippyThePinhead
adept
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 821
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

I play almost all 1/2..

Always buy in for the max and keep a pocket full of greens. Anytime I'm 25 or more below max I top off. Miss days when I could play online and choose auto top up feature.

2 reasons;

Firmly believe my skill edge increases as stacks are deeper relative to the blinds.

Firmly believe having a stack much greater than buy in cap influences others perception of me. with a great positive image, my win rate is at least double than when my image is negative. Majority of players in my pool perceive opponents more on very short term results than how that person actually plays.




Sent from my SM-T320 using 2+2 Forums
ZippyThePinhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 03:15 PM   #13267
Richard Parker
banned
 
Richard Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right Side of Variance
Posts: 13,985
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by RESTRAIN THIS View Post
If you're the best player at the table, and you have a comfortable bankroll, why would you buy in for anything less than the max?
Problems are:

1. Most people asking these questions are not the best player at the table (though they think they are).
2. Most people do not have a comfortable bankroll (though they'll probably argue because they're best, they don't need a huge roll).
3. If you already know, why would you need to ask?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RESTRAIN THIS View Post
I don't think people are obsessed with max buying or anything...I just know I'd be missing value by not buying in for the max, especially at capped games, like your typical 2/5 with a $500 or $600 max
When you are not the best player, don't have the roll, and insisted on buying in max, then...isn't that an obsession?
Richard Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 03:33 PM   #13268
Richard Parker
banned
 
Richard Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right Side of Variance
Posts: 13,985
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Amount to buy-in or rebuy should reflect at least these variables:

1. State of mind
2. Cash on hand
3. Ability

IMO, state of mind is most important because nothing else matters if your mind isn't above an optimal level. It does not mean only playing your A game, none of that absolute crap, but rather to play when your mind is at least at a level that is profitable.

Cash on hand is more important than bankroll for the obvious reason that you can't play if you don't have access to money.

Lastly it's your poker ability. It doesn't matter that you're Phil Ivey if you are drunk off your ass and can't see straight and blew away all the money accessible to you.
Richard Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 04:36 PM   #13269
miamicheats
i finance dead fish
 
miamicheats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: getting reverse bumhunted
Posts: 15,105
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

I buy in for the biggest number of big blinds I think I will be able to play best/correctly at.

Usually ends up being
Max in 100bb games
Max in 200bb games
125-160bb in uncapped games depending on the lineup
miamicheats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 04:41 PM   #13270
OhNoHeDi'int
newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 32
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
IMO, state of mind is most important because nothing else matters if your mind isn't above an optimal level.
As a player new to live this is very relevant. The thought of making mistakes deep stacked in an environment I'm not totally comfortable in definitely affects how I play negatively.
OhNoHeDi'int is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 04:48 PM   #13271
Mr Sandbag
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 251
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Not being highly skilled or the best player at the table isn't a good excuse for buying in <max most of the time. You'll never be the best if you completely avoid tough situations with which you're unfamiliar. This is especially the case when you're playing at the 1/3 or even most 2/5 levels where the best player at the table still isn't even all that great.

Bankroll shortage is another issue though.
Mr Sandbag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 04:57 PM   #13272
Richard Parker
banned
 
Richard Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right Side of Variance
Posts: 13,985
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sandbag View Post
Not being highly skilled or the best player at the table isn't a good excuse for buying in <max most of the time.
Why not? It's perfectly fine to buy in for less than max...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sandbag View Post
You'll never be the best if you completely avoid tough situations with which you're unfamiliar.
Great thing about poker is that you don't need to be the best.

What is YOUR obsession with buying in max?
Richard Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 04:58 PM   #13273
johnny_on_the_spot
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnny_on_the_spot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: S-Mart
Posts: 7,426
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sandbag View Post
Not being highly skilled or the best player at the table isn't a good excuse for buying in <max most of the time. You'll never be the best if you completely avoid tough situations with which you're unfamiliar.
There are more appropriate ways to get better than going headstrong into game time conditions with no practice under your belt
johnny_on_the_spot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 05:16 PM   #13274
DeathCabForTootie
Pooh-Bah
 
DeathCabForTootie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: SHR Tunaments
Posts: 5,720
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

I personally know several crushers that don't generally step into a game cold and snap buy-in full.

Having a set reason to do anything without considering dynamics is missing the forest for the trees.
DeathCabForTootie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2016, 05:18 PM   #13275
miamicheats
i finance dead fish
 
miamicheats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: getting reverse bumhunted
Posts: 15,105
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

You only have to be better than the worst player as long as that player is a genuine whale
miamicheats is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online