This was the very first thing that jumped out at me as I read this too. Your 2 biggest losing sessions are $1180 and $800, while you have no winning sessions in which you've won $800 or more. That probably means you have some big leaks you need to fix.

The best I can tell you is to be very wary of listening to specific advice about your game on this thread. I have had big downswings before and gone through what you're going to have to do now--examine yourself and try to plug your leaks. From experience I can tell you: very often your leaks are seemingly "little" things that you won't even think to tell us on the forum. You seem to be focusing on suckouts, but they aren't hurting you in the long term. There's other stuff that very well could be. You have to think over all of it.

Another thing I can tell you from experience is this: STOP TAKING SO MUCH MONEY OUT OF YOUR BANKROLL. That's probably the single biggest leak you have. If you can't afford not to spend a huge portion of your bankroll, you can't afford to play.

EDIT: Taking a break is probably a good idea. Playing PLO is a HORRIBLE idea. I can tell you that from experience too.

Buy in full (why are you buyin in for only 60 BBs?)

Tighten your range PF. Only play top 15% of starting hands.

Never lose more than $600 in a single session at 1/2. I see you lost over 1k in a single session. That should never ever happen. Once you've lost 2 or 3 buy ins, you lose the capacity to play your A-game (due to frustration/emotionality/tilt)

put in more volume. and adjust better; but i'm sure youre playing well enough to be profitable vs. the average live field.
because live poker is kinda a time warp, downswings, and running bad can seem more pronounced than it really is. I'm sure there are things you still need to figure out about how to adjust better, as you figure out live players weird tendancies, which will obv boost your winrate, but overall youre game is prolly fine. dont loose confidence; runs like this and much much worse are standard, and can last for months. you naturally tend to take breaks to re coup psychologically, and its no fun losing all the time, so you tend to start putting in less and less volume, which ironically is exactly what you need to increase in order to reverse the downswing. It's not always easy to play your way through it, but thats eventually what you need to do, by putting in the volume (which takes a lot of time). 6 month break even stretches are not unheard of. you need to develop gallows humour about it.

Um you said hours specifically haha no biggie...

yeah I really can't play my A game down 2 BI's anyways, but after 5 I know I'd be beyond frustrated knowing that even if I doubled up, I'd still be down 3 buyins. Just leave when the cards aren't falling, and keep playing when they are. You'll be surprised how much more enjoyable the game is when you are there longer when you are winning, and there less when you are losing.

Firstly, you need (NEED) to apply a stop loss. I see a session where you lose almost 10 buy-ins! Online this may be acceptable, but live, a huge no-no. I play live and two buy-ins is my stop loss. I'll buy-in once more if I can honestly convince myself I've just been coolered and can get it back.

Secondly, you need to stop buying in for $120. You're pretty much playing a short stack game, which is a terrible idea. You had enough of a bank-roll to start off with, so if you buy in for $200, with a stop loss of $400 you should be able to successfully get out of down-swing with little to no emotional damage. This is ofcourse assuming you are a competent player.

Lastly, since you are new to live I'll give you my biggest point of advice. Make sure you're not hungry and well rested. I can't tell you the number of dollars I lost in the beginning because I was playing 10 hour sessions after working all day and skipping dinner or lunch.

Yes I know it's irrelevant but I'm curious for some of the pro 2/5 and 5/10 grinders


Over a 2000 hour sample and 600 sessions I win 66% of time- I asked a local grinder last trip and he said he comes in right about the same



So for a good player (ie not a grindy variance hating old guy) who has a nice hourly over a large sample, what is your winning percentage



I think learning more about this might help me learn to deal with inevitable losing better, fwiw that's why I ask..

80% over 300 sessions.

This is completely player dependent.

It is def player dependent. I have read your thread in poker goals and challenges and for a player like you its not an issue. For a player that wins on average 1-2 buyins but has losing sessions of 4-5 buyins its probably a good idea to set a stop loss.

I finally learned to play longer sessions when winning and shorter sessions when losing, as hard as the concept is to follow.

Now I only have about 55% winning sessions, but I'm about a 7-8BB/hour winner. It's the amount you win, not the percentage of the time you win that counts. I used to have about 70% winning sessions when I would insist on staying at the table when I was stuck, and I was only about a 4BB/hour winner then.

I would agree with you that a stop-loss is probably a good idea.

Usually I'll walk into the casino and win a couple hundred or so in the first hour, once I get there, for some reason I change my game and start playing scared money if that makes sense.

Knowing this, I feel I should get up and just start another session later that day with a regular buyin. On the other hand, I would be limiting the amount I can win and also the table I go into on a new session could cooler be pretty good.

Many times I have played at a table for 4 hours, got up to go eat and came back to get on another table only to get sucked-out on by a 2 outer.

About the suck-outs. I do worry about them and let them affect my game. For example I was in a $700 pot with AK, TPTK against an 85% VPIP player. Knowing I was good on the flop, he went all-in and I folded cause I didn't want to get sucked-out on for all my stack lol. Lowl and behold, I woulda won.

Most of the suckouts are for my whole stack and that's why it bothers me so much. I had two suckouts happen to me today where I was a huge favorite till the river, both for my whole stack cause I was shoving on both hands as any decent player would. One suckout was a 2 outer and the other a 4 outer. This has happened to me at least twice per day for the last 2 weeks so my question to you guys was if I should just play small pots to rebuild and leave the big pots alone, even when I'm a huge favorite? Sounds totally stupid but I can't keep going in the casino and after 3 hours, get sucked-out on for my stack twice and leave.

Like the two suckouts today, I know I made the right decisions and I normally feel that way normally cause my money is always in good, otherwise it's not in. One guy said he called cause he couldn't put me on KK... what??? I haven't played a hand in like 45 mins. and have shown some strong past wins specifically to give a tight image. Either way dude, you called $400 with middle pair, what ****** does that?

So for the buyin issue. I buyin for $120 because it's more comfortable for me. Usually i play a shortstack strategy to start, looking to get it allin, double up and then start playing regular poker. In this, other players have paid for half my full buyin.

The $1180 day. OMG I couldn't believe I allowed myself to lose that much in a day. Basically I was at a 1/3 table with extremely loose, aggressive, $400 preflop players. I would call with premium hands and never hit, while they hit their 97s. My KK would get beat by 74 with a straight. Since the pot would be so huge preflop, I'm basically pot committed each hand since the max buyin is $500 and the pots were basically $300-$400 pre. The KK I shoved for the other $200, he called with 74o and hit a straight. In that instance, what do I do? It's such a juicy table, but do I just leave and look for the same type of table another day after one $500 buyin? If not for that losing day and the $800 one, I would be totally fine with my BR right now.

I also rarely play any speculative hands. Suited connectors and small PPs are played cheap only. I'll make the occasional 3-bet with a crap hand in position sometimes if I see a good situation. I'll 3-barrel and take pots down. I'll bet-fold the river, etc. Most of my hands in the last 2 weeks are won this way lol and not by my cards holding up... sadly. This is why most of my winning sessions are not more than $300, cause it's very difficult to win $500-$800 without your actual cards running at least moderately well.

On the other hand we have a reg named Muhammad. He is a 90%VPIP player and raises $80 with 74. Today he won $3k+ in about 45 minutes on a 1/3NL and all the wins were with marginal hands. He raises $80 pre with 74 and hits a straight. He calls $110 with pockets 5's and announces allin on the 663 flop and wins. I ask him why, he says cause nobody hit that board, even though the other players could have any PP over his or 2 overs, flush draws, etc. He won the pot of about $1.5k in the end.

First of all he may be right about nobody hitting that board and the raises preflop looked like AK, AQ but he had no business calling that after 2 others did with 55 lol. I look at players like that and it kinda throws my game off and wonder if I can also make 3k in 45 minutes. Knowing my luck though, instead of bricks, an A or K would've probably come if I had 55.

So I'm sure you guys are tired of hearing me rant now.

Any tips on the most profitable times of day? I notice when I walk in at about 12PM each day, we have about 3 tables running. One 3/6limit and two 1/2NL tables. They're all filled with middle-age to old nitty regs and a couple of solid players. This is usually the crowd till around 7PM (when I have to leave and pick up my wife from work) when all the juicy games get started and guys like Muhammad come in. I'm thinking about just going in after 7PM everyday instead of 12PM. My winning days have fallen because of the time of day I play I think. Ever since I started playing days, my winning sessions are much less and my winrate has plummeted.

One thing is for sure, I cannot allow myself to lose $1100 in one session... EVER AGAIN. That's such terrible BRM. So a stop-loss may not be a bad idea.

Do all of you think my $120 buyin, double up and play regular poker strategy is stupid? Why or why not? It limits my losses doesn't it?

Should I be sticking to ABC poker? Sometimes I will over-analyze the game, even though it's only $1/2 and likely fall into (fancy play syndrome).

Should I just be value betting or folding in this game? And get rid of double-barreling, check-raising, c-betting, bet-folding the river for the most part?

I thought about playing preflop passively and aggressively postflop when I hit, or fold, no matter the hand. Sounds too simple for me, and very exploitable though.

Thanks again in advance for the advice

Note to another responder: I don't think I'm a losing player if I set a stop-loss. It was just an expensive lesson learned and now I have to slowly rebuild unless I get on a heater soon (unlikely)

1200 hours, $65/h, 49% wins.

I've always had about a 50/50 split. I have a strict 3-buyin stop loss, but press my wins.

After reading this, I realize your mind is a mess. Take a week off, read Elements of Poker, and just play solidly after that. Nothing else should be required to beat live poker.

King Hubbard, this is not to be rude though it may come off that way, but just cut and run from poker. You are almost certainly not very good and not honest with yourself about your play, and that leads down a road of sorrow. That is based not on your results by the way, but on the way you talk about them.

i agree with this.

This is terrible advice, keep playing!

Well, I think I can safely say moving up to 2/5 has been a success. Finally built up the bankroll to buy in full 5 weeks ago, and have won $4100 over 47 hours since. My volume sucks, but I have a job and only have time to play Fridays and Saturdays.

I'd like to thank all the regular contributors to this forum for the excellent endless supply of reading material. Without 2+2 I'd probably still be playing level 1 poker, and probably wouldn't have the bankroll I do today. Hopefully I can keep my head above water when variance turns around again and starts punching me in the throat. Until then, I'll be sleeping at night feeling closer than ever to living the dream .

Congrats on your success. Win rate should continue to be good(but not quite that good)as your job ensures great game selection on Friday nights and Saturday.

Just spent 14 days in vegas (feb 28th - March 12th) as an experiment, started with a $4k bankroll. Played mostly at the flamingo, IP, mirage, and some at Aria, Caesers, PH, Ballys

STATS
Sessions: 37
Profit: $4265
Hourly Profit: $38.69/hr
Standard Dev: $154.73/hr
Total time played: 110.2 hrs
Longest session: 7.1 hrs
Best session: $950
Winning Sessions: 27

I'm a pretty bad player (I play very passive/loose pre-flop and just try to get it all in when I hit 2 pair, trips, straight, etc) so it seems like if a solid player just game selects well and are patient they can easily make $20+/hr playing 1/2 in vegas and stash away $40k a year... since you can get free food from the diamond lounge on CET properties or use comps... and rent expense is probably only $600/month.

The fact that you play loose means your variance is sky high. I don't think this is a good indicator of what someone should expect to make in these but congrats on your success.

Although that may beat having some jobs, it doesn't sound like a really nice long term life plan.

balance in life is kind of nice.

Exactly. The opportunity cost of grinding 1/2 for any decent stretch of time is sky high assuming you're not a dead****.

Funny you say that, I personally think I'm a decent player, not great but good enough to be a long-term winner. I always get my money in good.

I understand that suckouts happen and that it's a part of poker, I'm not concerned with that. I'm concerned with them happening too consistently for my bankroll to sustain them and letting it affect the rest of my game where I make wrong decisions based on past suckouts or bad-beats. This is what I think I need to get over.

The other poster is right when he says my mind is a mess. I do need to clear my mind but also be more disciplined and allow myself a strict stop-loss. I have employed that since the $1080 loss day and am happy with the results so far.

What do you guys think about switching to nights, starting at about 8pm. Understanding there are a lot of gamblers/drunks at that time instead of these old nits during the day, wouldn't it be more profitable? At the same time, wouldn't the suckouts happen more often?

Earlier I spoke about moving to 1/2PLO and someone responded with a huge NO. These game are more soft than any I've seen. Is there a reason why one wouldn't want to take advantage of that?

Ha! In your case one reason would be that the variance is much, much higher.

What you need to understand though, really understand not just 'know', is that variance is the reason poker is profitable.

Think about triple or quadruple your standard deviation, and yes, most of those guys don't know much about playing the game, but guess what, they're playing 6x more combinations of cards.