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Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

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Old 12-06-2015, 02:55 PM   #12001
Sneaky Pete
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by de4df1sh View Post
I really agree with aleksei when he says people underestimate how much money you can make playing 1/2 fulltime.
Let's put a dollar amount on what you think is medium hourly of someone playing 1/2 FT.

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In the 2 years I've been a professional gambler I've managed to buy a house, acquire a second dog, go on at least half a dozen mini vacations and overall live a pretty cushy life!
So if one start-up made millions in IPO, all start-ups will make millions in IPO?
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Old 12-06-2015, 03:06 PM   #12002
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*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete View Post
Let's put a dollar amount on what you think is medium hourly of someone playing 1/2 FT.
$12-15.

Let's be honest, if your EV is less than that at most 1/2 games, you're not cut out for poker as a career. 1/2 opponents aren't hard to beat.
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Old 12-06-2015, 03:09 PM   #12003
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

TBH, I don't think anyone "underestimates" $12 - $15 hourly.
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Old 12-06-2015, 03:16 PM   #12004
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They actually kind of do, which is how you get retarded movements like the whole "Fight for 15" bull****.

Unless you live in a liberal failed state such as Cali or Maryland, $15 per hour for 40 hours a week is actually a decent, if very modest, living.

If you want comfort (let alone if you ever want a family) you will have to move up, but 1/2 is a "job" with no entry barrier sans your capital, that makes at minimum as much as a well-paid entry level job.

Last edited by Aleksei; 12-06-2015 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 12-06-2015, 03:29 PM   #12005
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't choose this career for myself if I thought $15/hour was the ceiling.

The truth is that I think $15 is close to the floor, for anyone who has actual talent at the game. In reality, I would expect that anyone with the talent of most 2+2ers with experience would normally make $18-20 per hour at 1/2 -- and then there are always bigger games to eventually move up to.

But my original point was that 1/2 makes more than A LOT (if not most) of the more easily-attainable jobs, and given that it's not that easy to get a job nowadays (especially if you haven't had one in a while), it's not as simple as "don't play, get a job instead."
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Old 12-06-2015, 03:32 PM   #12006
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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They actually kind of do, which is how you get retarded movements like the whole "Fight for 15" bull****.

Unless you live in a liberal failed state such as Cali or Maryland, $15 per hour for 40 hours a week is actually a decent, if very modest, living.
You lost me.

I think if you want to believe that poker is a decent career choice even at $15/hr, I can't really sway you otherwise.

I am not here to bash anyone's dream, but I think it's a disservice to tell a young person that time investment in poker as a profession is not a waste.

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If you want comfort (let alone if you ever want a family) you will have to move up, but 1/2 is a "job" with no entry barrier sans your capital, that makes at minimum as much as a well-paid entry level job.
That's kind of the problem, 1/2 is always going to be the similar to entry level in terms of pay, but that is about it.

Game will shrink, disappear, get tougher, and so forth.

Your paycheck at this "entry level job" doesn't remain consistent, it is actually likely to have diminishing return over time. Think of it as inflation but at an even faster rate (and you still can't avoid inflation).

Plus entry level job is mostly mundane, just same thing over and over until you have mastered certain abilities to move up.

You don't do the same thing over and over in 1/2 and hope that will build your skill level to move up. It won't.

Anyhow, there have already been many posts out there discussing why poker isn't a good career...
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Old 12-06-2015, 03:34 PM   #12007
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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But my original point was that 1/2 makes more than A LOT (if not most) of the more easily-attainable jobs, and given that it's not that easy to get a job nowadays (especially if you haven't had one in a while), it's not as simple as "don't play, get a job instead."
I think you misunderstood what people said.

"Don't play poker as a career, go find a career with upward mobility instead."

Most people would actually strongly agree that if you're a winning player, poker makes a great "part-time job," because most don't expect part-time to be permanent and move up.
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Old 12-06-2015, 03:38 PM   #12008
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

The upward mobility of 1/2 is moving up to 1/3, 2/5, etc.; and/or potentially piggybacking a large built bankroll into seed money for another business.
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Old 12-06-2015, 04:13 PM   #12009
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

in hindsight, a live pro's bankroll should be like-

1/2- 10k, 6k min.
2/5- 25k+, 15k to take a shot
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Old 12-06-2015, 04:19 PM   #12010
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Good post. I definitely have noticed entitlement tilt is much easier to creep in when playing live compared to online.

Just curious, what do you mean when you say you made a $360 mistake? Did you calculate it cost you $360 of EV, or is it something like you bluffed off $360?

Mind sharing the hand, btw? Obv no prob if you would rather not.

it was calling a 360 river bet in a straddled pot in position. I had strong holdings BUT it was a situation where the villain had approx zero bluffs and was never value owning himself with weaker hands. I discussed it at length with SPC
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Old 12-06-2015, 04:52 PM   #12011
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
They actually kind of do, which is how you get retarded movements like the whole "Fight for 15" bull****.

Unless you live in a liberal failed state such as Cali or Maryland, $15 per hour for 40 hours a week is actually a decent, if very modest, living.

If you want comfort (let alone if you ever want a family) you will have to move up, but 1/2 is a "job" with no entry barrier sans your capital, that makes at minimum as much as a well-paid entry level job.
If I'm gonna' work 40 hrs a week, I'd rather be a dealer makin' $25 pr hr. They may not make that much in Vegas but they certainly do in MD. Some of the servers are pushin' 100k a year @ MD Live.

With nuttin' but a H.S. education. An E-6 in the military, with 16 years service & loads of continuing training & required college to become a senior NCO & a supervisor of 10-20 people makes <70k a year. Of course ~35% of it is tax free. The idea of grindin' out 40 hrs a week, 50 weeks a year playin' poker gives me an upset stomach. I'd have to be in the top 5% skill set of players. Then it really wouldn't be so much 'work' but more like 'free money.'

Last edited by ZuneIt; 12-06-2015 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:17 PM   #12012
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*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

NOT EVERYONE..

.. but most people's ceiling in poker is low. It is not just poker theory - there are way way more factors capping people.

~~~
- motivation / satisfaction
- competitive drive
- discipline
- critical self awareness and improvement
- money management / ability to live cheap
- availability of a good game
- Fear of losing... treating chips as chips and not thinking of them as losing house payments. counterintuitive - but some degen in you helps at pushing thin spots.

(Now realize how mutually exclusive not-caring-about-money-in-play, yet caring-about-money-off-the-felt are.)

You should get into poker in order to get out of poker IMO. .. preferably getting out with loads of cash - but soon

Last edited by bip!; 12-06-2015 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:22 PM   #12013
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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it was calling a 360 river bet in a straddled pot in position. I had strong holdings BUT it was a situation where the villain had approx zero bluffs and was never value owning himself with weaker hands. I discussed it at length with SPC
Got it, thanks for the response. Who's SPC?
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:25 PM   #12014
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

SPC = street poker chick = air goddess = snarky librarian. She is significantly smarter than I am
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:29 PM   #12015
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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She is significantly smarter than I am
That's not setting the bar too high.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:31 PM   #12016
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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NOT EVERYONE..

.. but most people's ceiling in poker is low. It is not just poker theory - there are way way more factors capping people.

~~~
- motivation / satisfaction
- competitive drive
- discipline
- money management / ability to live cheap
- availability of a good game
- Fear of losing... treating chips as chips and not thinking of them as losing house payments. counterintuitive - but some degen in you helps at pushing thin spots.

(Now realize how mutually exclusive not-caring-about-money-in-play, yet caring-about-money-off-the-felt are.)

You should get into poker in order to get out of poker IMO. .. preferably getting out with loads of cash - but soon
Well said, except that all of it is like playing music to someone who's is tone-deaf.

Unfortunately, experience is one of those things that can only be gained through...experience.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:32 PM   #12017
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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That's not setting the bar too high.
Shats fired!
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:41 PM   #12018
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Well said, except that all of it is like playing music to someone who's is tone-deaf.

Unfortunately, experience is one of those things that can only be gained through...experience.

Right - which is why what squid said upstream was a much clearer version of this.

"Have you ever performed your best at anything in life?" ... or something like that.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:44 PM   #12019
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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"Have you ever performed your best at anything in life?" ... or something like that.
I've had a few women tell me "that's the best sex I've ever had!" ........ however, they always went back to the bigger ones........
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Old 12-06-2015, 06:18 PM   #12020
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

YOUR best =/=THE best lol
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Old 12-06-2015, 06:29 PM   #12021
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

What trimester is this thread in? Too late to abort?
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Old 12-06-2015, 06:37 PM   #12022
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

I really think there is something wrong with a lot of peoples psychology in regards to money.

When people say "I want pancakes!" They usually only eat until suited.

In acquiring money that attitude is almost never the same. Most people I know have this sort of bottomless pot with in regards to money and they focus their whole life on how to get/make more with no real clear objective in mind or specific number of how much they need.

Mrs dead fish and I have decided that of we can make a combined ~40k a year (adjusting for inflation) that we can be totally happy!

I know that sounds crazy to some people but my point was that we live a pretty good quality of life on what the majority would consider a very small amoint of income and are generally very happy and don't have to apply a lot of time in acquiring 40k/yr and get to do a lot of cool stuff and spend time together.

If you want to get rich poker is not a good choice. But for the right person with the right mindset it can be great
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Old 12-06-2015, 06:48 PM   #12023
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

what you're saying definitely sounds possible Deadfish but if you're gonna have kids then life will be getting a load more expensive in ways you can't conceive without them
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Old 12-06-2015, 06:49 PM   #12024
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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If you want to get rich poker is not a good choice. But for the right person with the right mindset it can be great
Not trolling, and I am really curious. What kind of person with what kind of mindset would make poker a good choice?
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Old 12-06-2015, 06:51 PM   #12025
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Dead fish - you are different. You have things figured out and accurate.
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