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Old 10-09-2015, 07:43 PM   #11251
t_roy
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

If it's solely poker money, then yea go for it as long as you have enough to not play scared.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:49 PM   #11252
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by Balerion1 View Post
I mean how much money would you recommend I set aside from my life roll to begin to play 20-25 hours weekly. The game I'm intending on play is 2/2/3, it's pretty high rakes but, it's a good game to build a BR from.
In order to answer your question, you would have to answer few assumptions.

First assumption is that you are actually a winning poker player. A losing player would need to consider how much he's losing per hour, and then multiply that by 20-25. Most players are probably losing at the rate of $30 - $40/hr, so if you are a losing player, your weekly roll would probably need to be around $1000 to sustain your new gambling habit.

Second assumption is your win rate. If you are winning marginally, then your roll should be able to sustain the variance of being a marginal player. I would probably put it at somewhere around 10 to 15 BI as a marginal player.

Third assumption is that you're a crusher. If you are one of the better players that could be crushing the game at 7 - 10bb/hr, and we can probably guess that you are not by the fact that you posted the question in the first place, then you should refer back to the first two assumptions.

So for you, I would probably consider $1000/week or $4000/month as starter, and if you lose that, you shouldn't consider playing poker as anything but hobby.

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I am, and that is why saving up a little extra money is taking longer. However, paying off student loan is first priority, but I'm also trying to squeeze in poker, build a BR.
You are trying to run when you haven't even figured out how to crawl.

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The most common issue of mine has been winner's tilt tbqh. I'm a calm demeanor and generally live in the moment type of guy in general so I don't have tilt issues that makes me play bad.
Very few people are self-aware, and that is why it's called tilt. Everyone tilts and people who say that they do not tilt are usually oblivious of their own emotion or in denial.

For someone who hasn't even played enough poker to know whether you can even win money, you don't know what tilt is.

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If I'm up, say a buy-in or two, my brain start to suggest that I should get up and leave. Which is why i picked up the mental game of poker... So I think it's a good idea to set mini goals around this issue first and foremost.
It's actually not called winner's tilt.

Winner's tilt is someone who starts to spew and play wildly aggressive because he's up a lot of money and feels that he can do whatever he wants.

Someone who's afraid of losing back the "profit" is simply scared money. Part of that fear is that you are unconsciously aware that you are not able to "protect" profit.

Anyhow, some harsh words, but I think anyone who's setting up positive outlooks for someone asking your kind of questions is doing you a big disservice.
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Old 10-09-2015, 11:45 PM   #11253
progress
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

That 1/2 winrate is literally unbelievable. WTF.
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Old 10-10-2015, 12:50 AM   #11254
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete View Post
So for you, I would probably consider $1000/week or $4000/month as starter, and if you lose that, you shouldn't consider playing poker as anything but hobby.
I'd never discourage a -$4000/mo player from sitting as often as possible.

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Old 10-10-2015, 04:49 AM   #11255
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete View Post
In order to answer your question, you would have to answer few assumptions.

First assumption is that you are actually a winning poker player. A losing player would need to consider how much he's losing per hour, and then multiply that by 20-25. Most players are probably losing at the rate of $30 - $40/hr, so if you are a losing player, your weekly roll would probably need to be around $1000 to sustain your new gambling habit.


It's not a new "gambling habit" but $1,000 set away for a week is a good idea.


Second assumption is your win rate. If you are winning marginally, then your roll should be able to sustain the variance of being a marginal player. I would probably put it at somewhere around 10 to 15 BI as a marginal player.



Third assumption is that you're a crusher. If you are one of the better players that could be crushing the game at 7 - 10bb/hr, and we can probably guess that you are not by the fact that you posted the question in the first place, then you should refer back to the first two assumptions.

So for you, I would probably consider $1000/week or $4000/month as starter, and if you lose that, you shouldn't consider playing poker as anything but hobby.



You are trying to run when you haven't even figured out how to crawl.



Very few people are self-aware, and that is why it's called tilt. Everyone tilts and people who say that they do not tilt are usually oblivious of their own emotion or in denial.

For someone who hasn't even played enough poker to know whether you can even win money, you don't know what tilt is.



It's actually not called winner's tilt.

Winner's tilt is someone who starts to spew and play wildly aggressive because he's up a lot of money and feels that he can do whatever he wants.

Someone who's afraid of losing back the "profit" is simply scared money. Part of that fear is that you are unconsciously aware that you are not able to "protect" profit.

Anyhow, some harsh words, but I think anyone who's setting up positive outlooks for someone asking your kind of questions is doing you a big disservice.

I'd agree that it's scared money (my bad for using the wrong term), I've always been under rolled so that was always in the back of my mind while being at the table. Which obviously is not the best mind set. But having a full time job will help in this area.

I'm not new to the game. I'd say in the last 4 years i've played less than 1,000 hours with big gaps, it's been inconsistent play, but I've had my ups and downs. With enough volume I'd say I can be a marginal winner at the game for now. With additional work off the table I'm sure soon I can a decent winner.

Anyways, I'll try my shots with $1,000, nit it up the first 100 or so hours, find some leaks, post on here, and set a new mini goals.

Thanks for the input
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Old 10-10-2015, 01:25 PM   #11256
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Can I find you on the coaching forum?
I'm not I the coaching forum but am currently coaching/staking one person putting in light volume. If actually interested feel free to pm if its not against the rules.
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:06 PM   #11257
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Sick results by RF and WJ. Nice!
+1
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Old 10-13-2015, 07:02 PM   #11258
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balerion1
What kind of BR should I save up for before playing part time (20-25 hours a week) playing 1-2 and 1-3?
I started with 2.5k & played tight. Didn't play but 10% of all starting hands 1st 4 seats past BB. Concentrated on maximizing Button, CO & HJ profits. I still had a 1.1k downswing that scared the shyt out of me.

Built it up to 9k & now I believe a 9k roll reduces my risk of ruin to <5% where I play & I have slowly opened up my game.

I cash out everything over 9k once a month. I didn't get paid in September, as I lost $38.00. First time since February.
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Old 10-13-2015, 09:21 PM   #11259
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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I started with 2.5k & played tight. Didn't play but 10% of all starting hands 1st 4 seats past BB. Concentrated on maximizing Button, CO & HJ profits. I still had a 1.1k downswing that scared the shyt out of me.

Built it up to 9k & now I believe a 9k roll reduces my risk of ruin to <5% where I play & I have slowly opened up my game.

I cash out everything over 9k once a month. I didn't get paid in September, as I lost $38.00. First time since February.
Nice!

For the game I play anything over 3-4K, imo, is unlimited BR. I ended up taking out 1k, and broke even over 13 hours played over the weekend but ended up picking up a lot of things to work on.

I am playing tight from EP as well, mostly playing in LP, and blinds if it's cheap to get in or free.

Reading COTM right now. Trying to re-read C-betting and planning the hand out. Planning, as I re-discovered over the weekend, is most definitely a leak of mine.

Hopefully I'm around 2.5-3k at the end of 100 hours 😀
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Old 10-13-2015, 10:08 PM   #11260
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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I started with 2.5k & played tight. Didn't play but 10% of all starting hands 1st 4 seats past BB. Concentrated on maximizing Button, CO & HJ profits. I still had a 1.1k downswing that scared the shyt out of me.

Built it up to 9k & now I believe a 9k roll reduces my risk of ruin to <5% where I play & I have slowly opened up my game.

I cash out everything over 9k once a month. I didn't get paid in September, as I lost $38.00. First time since February.
Here's my results from a past month of mostly 1/2, 1/3 (hrs, profit, game): Remove the 2/5 sessions, and it's clear I would have been playing a bit high ror on a <6k roll.

1.5 -500 2-5.
2 -500 1-3.
4 560 1-3.
4.5 1915 2-5.
3 295 1-2.
4.5 -900 1-3.
2 300 1-3.
2 450 1-3.
9.5 -1050 5-10 OE, 1-2.
3 675 1-3.
3.5 -780 1-3.
3 -1400 1-3.
4.5 600 1-2.
4 -70 1-2.
2.5 175 1-3.
5 1900 2-5.
5. -1100 1-3.
4 -385 2-5.
3 195 1-3.
3.5 335 1-3.
3 480 1-3.
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Old 10-13-2015, 10:16 PM   #11261
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Depends on your style and game I guess, because my results look absolutely nothing like that at 1/2 and 1/3.
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Old 10-13-2015, 11:32 PM   #11262
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Remove the 2/5 sessions, and it's clear I would have been playing a bit high ror on a <6k roll.


I'm on the other side of the spectrum. My session $won/lossed is similar (avg. 5hrs though) but my roll is 80something max buy ins.

KbankrollnitpreparedforrunbadanydaynowM
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:29 AM   #11263
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

just played a 300+30 (with 100 bounty) satellite to the 1100 buyin. had 125,000 chips (vs. average stack of 70,000) at like 1000/2000/100 level and proceeded to lose AK vs KQ, QTs vs 44, 88 vs T7, 66 vs 44 and finally 88 vs AK within 30 minutes. bubbled at 19 when 18/17 get $900 cash and top 16 get seats.

picked up 5 bounties along the way but i was about ready to punch the nearest baby i saw in the face. hell of time to lose 5 coin flips or better in a row when just one would have likely gotten me in.

this game is teh gay
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:30 AM   #11264
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
just played a 300+30 (with 100 bounty) satellite to the 1100 buyin. had 125,000 chips (vs. average stack of 70,000) at like 1000/2000/100 level and proceeded to lose AK vs KQ, QTs vs 44, 88 vs T7, 66 vs 44 and finally 88 vs AK within 30 minutes. bubbled at 19 when 18/17 get $900 cash and top 16 get seats.

picked up 5 bounties along the way but i was about ready to punch the nearest baby i saw in the face. hell of time to lose 5 coin flips or better in a row when just one would have likely gotten me in.

this game is teh gay
fold pre
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:45 AM   #11265
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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i was about ready to punch the nearest baby i saw in the face.
weak
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Old 10-14-2015, 06:49 AM   #11266
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by kookiemonster View Post


I'm on the other side of the spectrum. My session $won/lossed is similar (avg. 5hrs though) but my roll is 80something max buy ins.

KbankrollnitpreparedforrunbadanydaynowM
I'm playing from cashflow, which is pretty similar, and yeah the short sessions are necessarily going to be swingier. This was in 2013 during grad school. I just see so many posts that are like:

"Recovering from a scary 5.5 BI downswing, thankfully I have 15+ BI roll so should be ok"

Maybe my game is just higher variance, but I've had at least two 14 BI downswings and an 800 hr BE stretch in the last two years.

I think Bart perpetuated this weird expectation of playing a low variance game when he said (sometime during the deuce plays era) that he'd never had more than a 7k downswing at 5/T....
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Old 10-14-2015, 08:47 AM   #11267
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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I'm playing from cashflow, which is pretty similar, and yeah the short sessions are necessarily going to be swingier. This was in 2013 during grad school. I just see so many posts that are like:

"Recovering from a scary 5.5 BI downswing, thankfully I have 15+ BI roll so should be ok"

Maybe my game is just higher variance, but I've had at least two 14 BI downswings and an 800 hr BE stretch in the last two years.

I think Bart perpetuated this weird expectation of playing a low variance game when he said (sometime during the deuce plays era) that he'd never had more than a 7k downswing at 5/T....
I just started playing live poker the past 4 months. So far I have logged 600 hours, and in these hours I've had numerous 5bi+- swings, a 5k downswing playing 1/2 and 1/3, and now its been 300 hours that ive been slightly winning but breaking evenish. Yet, I still manage to do well in the games and I am winning at an average 10bb/h. I do believe I have a big edge, but I play a rather TAGish style which I would consider being low variance. However, I have the feeling that a lot of people in this thread have been on the better side of variance and when I see things like 10buyins for a stake is enough if u are a good player I just completly disagree. Variance in live poker is sick, and if you want to play seriously I reckon you need to be ready for the absolute worst. 5bi upswings/downswings will happen often (unless maybe ur playing in the absolute softest game in the world, but even then...), and 10bi downswings, even 20 bi downswings might also happen. The most important thing for live poker is to stay strong mentally.
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Old 10-14-2015, 10:03 AM   #11268
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

I don't even consider 5BI a swing. But maybe that's an east vs west coast thing, since BI is 100bb and I'm usually in for 200bb a pop
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Old 10-14-2015, 10:25 AM   #11269
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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I don't even consider 5BI a swing. But maybe that's an east vs west coast thing, since BI is 100bb and I'm usually in for 200bb a pop
this is the way to go imo, getting to the point where you're completely unfazed about a 5bi downswing isnt too hard because it happens so often too.
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Old 10-14-2015, 10:39 AM   #11270
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

5BI is like two standard sessions...
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Old 10-14-2015, 10:47 AM   #11271
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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I don't even consider 5BI a swing. But maybe that's an east vs west coast thing, since BI is 100bb and I'm usually in for 200bb a pop
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this is the way to go imo, getting to the point where you're completely unfazed about a 5bi downswing isnt too hard because it happens so often too.
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5BI is like two standard sessions...
exactly ... which is why I disagree with people in this thread recommending 10bi bankroll and claiming it to be enough to play a stake.
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Old 10-14-2015, 10:59 AM   #11272
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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exactly ... which is why I disagree with people in this thread recommending 10bi bankroll and claiming it to be enough to play a stake.
Its not enough to grind for a living but if you are looking to start at 1/2 I think its enough because you'll run it up more than you'll go bust. 5 BI downswing is pretty standard for a grinder but if you are just starting out and play super tight and low varience I think you can make it work more than not. If you plan to grind and try to play optimal poker than I think at an absolute minimum 10BI is necessary for TAG style and 20+ for a more LAGish one.
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Old 10-14-2015, 11:13 AM   #11273
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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fold pre
For reals. If you have enough chips to get AIPF and lose 5 times and bubble, you have plenty of chips to fold into a seat. Consider this an expensive and largely useless lesson in ICM.
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Old 10-14-2015, 11:17 AM   #11274
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Its not enough to grind for a living but if you are looking to start at 1/2 I think its enough because you'll run it up more than you'll go bust. 5 BI downswing is pretty standard for a grinder but if you are just starting out and play super tight and low varience I think you can make it work more than not. If you plan to grind and try to play optimal poker than I think at an absolute minimum 10BI is necessary for TAG style and 20+ for a more LAGish one.
thats just wrong. A grinder will be a better player then your player who is looking to start. Playing super tight doesn't necesarilly mean low variance. Variance will depend of your edge in the game you play in. The higher your edge the lower the variance. By playing super tight you might pass out on +ev spots. Saying that by player super tight 10bi in enough for a stake is wrong imo.
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Old 10-14-2015, 11:17 AM   #11275
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Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Its not enough to grind for a living but if you are looking to start at 1/2 I think its enough because you'll run it up more than you'll go bust. 5 BI downswing is pretty standard for a grinder but if you are just starting out and play super tight and low varience I think you can make it work more than not. If you plan to grind and try to play optimal poker than I think at an absolute minimum 10BI is necessary for TAG style and 20+ for a more LAGish one.
Right. It's important to understand that "risk of ruin" really means "risk of not being able to play poker any more until you scrounge up some more cash." If you want to play poker as a serious hobby, but you have a day job, the "bankroll" you need is basically the amount of money you have to put on the table. If you lose it, you can't play poker until you find some more poker money, but that's not really ruination.

Bankroll is much more relevant when you're talking about sums that you can't readily replace. If you are rolled for a T/25 game, putting yourself out of the action is something that's going to cost you a lot of earning power and may well not be something you can readily fix. Not so for a 1/3 game.
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