Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-14-2014, 11:16 PM   #7751
Duke0424
self-banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Desert
Posts: 13,374
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

No, there is no disadvantage buying in for $500 even if everyone else has $5million on the table
Duke0424 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2014, 11:30 PM   #7752
squeek12
old hand
 
squeek12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Breesus!
Posts: 1,751
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke0424 View Post
No, there is no disadvantage buying in for $500 even if everyone else has $5million on the table
Thanks, that's what I was thinking but thought maybe there could be something I wasn't considering. It's a little strange being at the table and here comes a reg who plops down 4 $500 chips on top of his actually playing chips. I suppose it's probably good that I'll be pretty even stack wise with the rec players and not too deep with the regs to start.

Games here pretty much all play deep. I buy in for $300 at 1/2 and I'm often an average stack.
squeek12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2014, 11:55 PM   #7753
feel wrath
The Situation
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: lost on the turn
Posts: 18,792
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

there's only the possibility of you feeling 'psyched out' by seeing those enormous stacks. But only part of their stacks play as the effective stacks in play vs you.

if two of the big stacks are in the hand with you, then you need to be aware of any implications of those guys playing against each other for deep stacks and how that relates to you. But somebody like ATSai or the pros who play deeper more often will be able to break down that better than I could so I'm not going to muddy the water
feel wrath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 08:06 AM   #7754
Koss
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Playing Recreationally
Posts: 5,123
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

10 years ago I used to short stack an uncapped buy in 2/2/5 game with 100. I would hit and run against the guys who would try to bully around the scared money saying "you cant play this game with only $100"

I actually struggle with uncappes games because it messes with the "always buy full" mantra. When I go to vegas for work im always next to the hard rock which has 1/3 uncapped. I say just buy in for what youre comfortable with. Returns diminish as games get deeper. Ie the value you gain from increasing your buy in from 400 to 500 is greater than increasing from 500 to 600. Pick a number youre comfortable with, and take shots upping it when you see deep stacked fish.
Koss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 10:24 AM   #7755
Avaritia
Confirmed 2500 hour haver
 
Avaritia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,316
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek12 View Post
Is it totally fine buying in for $500 even though that will often put my in the bottom 1/3 of the table stack-wise? Are there any disadvantages other than sometimes not covering all the bad to mediocre players that I need to be aware of?
Playing with 100bbs is fine/standard but realize while you're not at a "disadvantage" per se you are experiencing the opportunity cost of missed value by not playing deeper. Most villains are terribad when it comes to deepstack poker so competent heros should have a significant edge.

So yes shot take 100bbs now but realize your game is fantastic and your eventual goal should be to buy in deep in position vs other deeps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss View Post
Returns diminish as games get deeper. Ie the value you gain from increasing your buy in from 400 to 500 is greater than increasing from 500 to 600
No
Avaritia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 12:15 PM   #7756
BradleyT
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BradleyT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 9,420
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

The disadvantage comes into play when the game "plays bigger" pre-flop because of the large stacks. It can cause unfavorable SPRs for a large portion of your normal hand range such as suited connectors/gappers and small pairs. $50-$75 to see every flop sucks when you have a $500 stack.
BradleyT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 12:36 PM   #7757
iraisetoomuch
Using one time every time
 
iraisetoomuch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 21,927
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradleyT View Post
The disadvantage comes into play when the game "plays bigger" pre-flop because of the large stacks. It can cause unfavorable SPRs for a large portion of your normal hand range such as suited connectors/gappers and small pairs. $50-$75 to see every flop sucks when you have a $500 stack.
Then adjust. If its $75 to see a flop tighten your range and 3b/4b jam more often with the top portion of your range and pick up $150+ in dead money.
iraisetoomuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 01:57 PM   #7758
de4df1sh
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
de4df1sh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: mobtown
Posts: 6,576
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
Then adjust. If its $75 to see a flop tighten your range and 3b/4b jam more often with the top portion of your range and pick up $150+ in dead money.
I like this strat a lot.

I used this extensively buying in for 100bbs in a 200bb cap game and a majority of the time people will not even recognize how tight you are and you can get your money in super good with super ease.
de4df1sh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 05:52 PM   #7759
Duke0424
self-banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Desert
Posts: 13,374
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradleyT View Post
The disadvantage comes into play when the game "plays bigger" pre-flop because of the large stacks. It can cause unfavorable SPRs for a large portion of your normal hand range such as suited connectors/gappers and small pairs. $50-$75 to see every flop sucks when you have a $500 stack.
That's not a disadvantage... If people are raising to $50 with their entire range, then Hero should be able to make tons of money playing a $500 stack doing what IR2M said
Duke0424 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 09:12 PM   #7760
GrindPokerAllDay
banned
 
GrindPokerAllDay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: In a poker room near you.
Posts: 2,326
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

There are advantages and disadvantages to playing both deep and short. However, in cash games big stacks don't have the advantage of just being able to run over the table like they can in tournaments.

The deeper the effective stacks, the more one can outplay his opponent by manipulating the pot. This is a 2 way street though and if you are underrolled, new to the level, or not experienced playing deep then you will actually be at a disadvantage by playing deep. By contrast, a good short stacked player can make things quite problematic for even the best deep stack players. Of course, there aren't many good short stackers because playing deep tends to be more +EV but there are advantages/disadvantages to both and there are situations where I would most certainly rather be short than deep.
GrindPokerAllDay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 10:05 PM   #7761
bm303
old hand
 
bm303's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,954
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek12 View Post
2/5 is normally the biggest game spread at my local casino. The buy-in is uncapped and the grinder types usually have stacks of $1,500 or more. Typically the rec players and tourists buy in for $500 or so at a time.

I'm just starting to take shots at this game and I'm underrolled. I play for profit but have a full time job and am okay being aggressive with my bankroll. Is it totally fine buying in for $500 even though that will often put my in the bottom 1/3 of the table stack-wise? Are there any disadvantages other than sometimes not covering all the bad to mediocre players that I need to be aware of?

BR is currently at $4,700 and I'm willing to risk about $1,500 on this shot. I'm a teacher so the only real concern is that I have a decent enough roll to stay in action at least for 1/2 come next summer.
I would buy in for the absolute minimum and short stack this game. Wait for monsters pre flop and plan to get it all in on almost every flop. They might catch on and stop paying you off and you can always switch tables after doubling up if you want. That or top off your doubled up stack to the max and play deeper stacked.

If I sit down at a table that is full of huge stacks I simply buy in shorter and find they are looser deep stacked and will call you down even though you are only playing huge hands. Unless they are really bad I feel more comfortable playing short knowing that their loose tendencies when deep stacked will lead to them getting involved with my QQ+.

I short stacked a couple dozen hours of 1/2 and you would be shocked how often you get snap called by A10 when your only showing up with AA, KK, QQ or AK. I still short stack when I am nervous at a table or when I first buy in since it requires almost no thinking and you can observe the players instead of thinking about your hand.
bm303 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2014, 10:33 PM   #7762
Aleksei
adept
 
Aleksei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Inside your mom
Posts: 1,116
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

The problem with shortstacking is the rake -- when you play shorter you pay a bigger % rake, which can eat into your winrate.

If buying in "short" means 100bb that may not apply.
Aleksei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2014, 10:37 AM   #7763
GatorXP
old hand
 
GatorXP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Out of the Theater
Posts: 1,717
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
The problem with shortstacking is the rake -- when you play shorter you pay a bigger % rake, which can eat into your winrate.

If buying in "short" means 100bb that may not apply.
Your only short stacked until the first double up.
GatorXP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2014, 10:42 AM   #7764
Koss
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Playing Recreationally
Posts: 5,123
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

What makes shortstacking more profitable in these games is when deep stacks dont adjust properly. They will try to bully you with rags and call speculative hands with no implied odds. At least that was my experience when I used to do it a long time ago. Not sure if people have caught on more or not.
Koss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2014, 01:14 PM   #7765
ashes to ashes
veteran
 
ashes to ashes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,137
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Pretty awful advice regarding ss'ing itt

Sent from my DROID4 using 2+2 Forums
ashes to ashes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2014, 01:54 PM   #7766
CanadaPete
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 525
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Playing with 100bbs is fine/standard but realize while you're not at a "disadvantage" per se you are experiencing the opportunity cost of missed value by not playing deeper. Most villains are terribad when it comes to deepstack poker so competent heros should have a significant edge.

So yes shot take 100bbs now but realize your game is fantastic and your eventual goal should be to buy in deep in position vs other deeps.



No

Um, I think his point is the more money you have on the table the less likely it is to go in. i.e. if they ran uncapped 1/3 and you could buy in for 2k how often is the 2k going in??

i've played big games before with people buying in for ridiculous amounts that never go in...however, if you are comfortable putting it on the table there might be a day where it actually comes into play.

just a hypothetical if they capped a 2/5 game at 5k how often would you play a 10k heads up even in a decent lineup?? The answer is not really that often imo. its not to say buying in this deep might not be beneficial it's just a point im making.

another point in this same regard that is very simple is that your bankroll to play 1/2 and buy in for 200 needs to be alot less than buying into 2/5 for 200. the 200 is way more likely to get put in play (assuming you are fairly aggressive.)
CanadaPete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2014, 03:20 PM   #7767
squeek12
old hand
 
squeek12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Breesus!
Posts: 1,751
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Played in the game I posted about last night. I started at the must move game where the stacks were normal for a 2/5 game, between $400 and $700. When I got moved to the main game there were about 4-5 stacks >$2500. I felt like an optimal stack for me would be about $700-$800. Straddles were common and pf raises were usually between $25-35. I feel like I need to stay around $700 so that I can set mine when appropriate. There was just too much value to be had to have to fold PPs to normal opens b/c I'm not deep enough.

I was pretty card dead but left up about $200. I'm going to continue to play when the game looks good but it's usually pretty bad except for peak times Friday and Saturday nights.
squeek12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2014, 03:36 PM   #7768
Avaritia
Confirmed 2500 hour haver
 
Avaritia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,316
Re: *** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaPete View Post
i.e. if they ran uncapped 1/3 and you could buy in for 2k how often is the 2k going in??
If most are that deep and I'm playing in it, more than you think.

Also I'm not sure you realize but that sentence is support of my side of the argument, not yours.

Hint:

Spoiler:
Avaritia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2014, 10:56 PM   #7769
HertzDonut
centurion
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 185
Opening up my range

I am a winning online microstakes player and am moving into LLSNL.

I've been playing $100 buy-in at 1/2 games to get a feel for live poker without trashing my bankroll before making a stab at trying to win some actual money.

I am winning approx 8bb/hr over first 50hrs, and am getting comfortable with LLSNL (please dont give me sample size crap. I've played over 1M hands online with +winrate).

At this point, my confidence is up, and I'm planning on starting to buy-in full stacked (100-150 bb).

Two questions:

1) Does anyone have significant experience with both short stack play and full stack play to comment on what is going to happen to my winrate (and variance) presuming I play a solid full stacked game?

2) I have been playing a 50bb strategy (ie squeaky tight short-stack strategy with some med/small pp and suited aces mixed in when the price and situation are right). LLSNL players play much wider/looser than online. What is the best way to open up my range in LLSNL?

Last edited by HertzDonut; 08-17-2014 at 11:11 PM.
HertzDonut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2014, 11:08 PM   #7770
paratrooper99
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Paratrooper1999 on Twitch
Posts: 1,859
Re: Opening up my range

Live stats are going to be player dependent. Each table will have a totally different dynamic.
It will be much looser than online.
Focus on solid in position play vs deep players.
3bets will have nearly no fold equity
You will hardly ever be able to isolate players.
Value bet because live players will rarely fold draws (even gut shots). NO free cards.
In multiway pots, do not cbet unless you have gained equity on the flop. Villains will call with any pair.
Because of live rake rate, never buy in short.
paratrooper99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2014, 11:15 PM   #7771
Koss
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Playing Recreationally
Posts: 5,123
Re: Opening up my range

1. Winrate should go up, a lot. You are missing tons of chances to stack fish for 100bb. Im not really an expert on variance, but if you have 1M+ hands of online play I will assume you have seen swings of 5 to 10 buy ins or more. You will have those in llsnl, but they seem to be less common. I find the games to be less swingy than TAG fest online poker.

2. Position and players. Open your range when you are in position vs. fish. I.e. reg limps in, whale limps, you have K5s on the button, raise. The reg will likely fold or play fit/fold on the flop. Now you have position on a fish and are likely ahead of his range, even though your hand seems raggy. You have lotsn of options. Bluff, value bet, check it down. Open up your button range and look to isolate fish. Thats about it.
Koss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2014, 11:46 PM   #7772
Garick
Oberbiergenießer
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 20,090
Re: Opening up my range

I'm moving this to the BR, winrates and finances thread. That's where the SS vs full stack discussion belongs.

As for "What is the best way to open up my range in LLSNL?" that question is way too general for any kind of decent answer. Cliffs are: "forget "light iso," open range in position, but only for value against their worse ranges.
Garick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2014, 02:25 AM   #7773
Shell Gas
journeyman
 
Shell Gas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 228
Re: Opening up my range

Quote:
Originally Posted by HertzDonut View Post
I am winning approx 8bb/hr over first 50hrs, and am getting comfortable with LLSNL (please dont give me sample size crap. I've played over 1M hands online with +winrate).
Well Mr. 1M+ hands winner, if sample size is not an issue, why do you need time to get comfortable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HertzDonut View Post
At this point, my confidence is up, and I'm planning on starting to buy-in full stacked (100-150 bb).

Two questions:

1) Does anyone have significant experience with both short stack play and full stack play to comment on what is going to happen to my winrate (and variance) presuming I play a solid full stacked game?
Wouldn't you know all this basic information if you are a 1M+ hands winner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HertzDonut View Post
2) I have been playing a 50bb strategy (ie squeaky tight short-stack strategy with some med/small pp and suited aces mixed in when the price and situation are right). LLSNL players play much wider/looser than online. What is the best way to open up my range in LLSNL?
Again, wouldn't someone with 1M+ hands experience be very capable of making these simple adjustments?

Or are you saying that you're 1M+ hands online was played in such brain dead environment, adjustments simply weren't needed?
Shell Gas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2014, 03:32 AM   #7774
Duke0424
self-banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Desert
Posts: 13,374
Re: Opening up my range

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shell Gas View Post
Well Mr. 1M+ hands winner, if sample size is not an issue, why do you need time to get comfortable?



Wouldn't you know all this basic information if you are a 1M+ hands winner?



Again, wouldn't someone with 1M+ hands experience be very capable of making these simple adjustments?

Or are you saying that you're 1M+ hands online was played in such brain dead environment, adjustments simply weren't needed?
Lolz
Duke0424 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2014, 10:22 AM   #7775
FlyLikeABird
old hand
 
FlyLikeABird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,705
Re: Opening up my range

Quote:
Originally Posted by HertzDonut View Post
I am a winning online microstakes player and am moving into LLSNL.

I've been playing $100 buy-in at 1/2 games to get a feel for live poker without trashing my bankroll before making a stab at trying to win some actual money.

I am winning approx 8bb/hr over first 50hrs, and am getting comfortable with LLSNL (please dont give me sample size crap. I've played over 1M hands online with +winrate).

At this point, my confidence is up, and I'm planning on starting to buy-in full stacked (100-150 bb).

Two questions:

1) Does anyone have significant experience with both short stack play and full stack play to comment on what is going to happen to my winrate (and variance) presuming I play a solid full stacked game?

2) I have been playing a 50bb strategy (ie squeaky tight short-stack strategy with some med/small pp and suited aces mixed in when the price and situation are right). LLSNL players play much wider/looser than online. What is the best way to open up my range in LLSNL?
I'd play another 1 MM + hands
FlyLikeABird is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online