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Old 05-16-2019, 03:43 PM   #1
ThrirtyThree
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2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

V1(1600, UTG+1) MAWM, tight and sometimes can be nit post flop.
V2(1100, LP) Late 20s white guy. Used to be action player. Now tight up his ranges and try to be a "thinking" player. Saw him flat AK multiple ways in BB and check raised on Ace high flop.

UTG straddles to 10, V1 raises to 40(77+ AJ+), V2 3b to 100 and folds to hero(covers) in SB with JJ. Not sure what's small 3b mean. I saw him check raise small on flop with top pair.

Hero tanks a little bit and 4b to 320. V1 gives a speech and folds. V2 tanks about 20 seconds and called.

Flop(670): 882r

Hero bets 220, V2 called quickly.

Turn(1010): Q no flush draw.

Hero checks and V checks behind

River(1010): 3

Hero checks. V checks behind.


What do you think about preflop 4b? Is it bad? Do you just fold pre?
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Old 05-16-2019, 03:59 PM   #2
jdr0317
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Iíd make my 4 bet slightly smaller.

As played hand looks fine


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Old 05-16-2019, 04:13 PM   #3
sixsevenoff
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

You have to 4 bet pre and I like your line a lot
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Old 05-16-2019, 05:19 PM   #4
svindaloo
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Kind of awkward spot, you can't flat because you give v1 way too good odds, so I think I like 4bet with most of your range here. That said, needs to be way smaller. You obviously have to fold if someone comes over the top, and that's moderately likely given that a tight guy opened ep and was 3bet by a thinkingish player, especially one who you've seen flat ak before. I'd 4 bet to something like 230 with most of my range.

Otherwise, I like your line. I'd guess v shows up with ak or aq?
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Old 05-16-2019, 05:47 PM   #5
jdr0317
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

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Originally Posted by svindaloo View Post
Kind of awkward spot, you can't flat because you give v1 way too good odds, so I think I like 4bet with most of your range here. That said, needs to be way smaller. You obviously have to fold if someone comes over the top, and that's moderately likely given that a tight guy opened ep and was 3bet by a thinkingish player, especially one who you've seen flat ak before. I'd 4 bet to something like 230 with most of my range.

Otherwise, I like your line. I'd guess v shows up with ak or aq?

Ya like we donít need to make our 4 bet big because the SPR will be quite small. And our fold equity is generated from our strong range. I donít think 320 is bad FWIW, but Iíd rather not make it so big that we only get action from premiums

So yeah we are in agreement with this.


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Old 05-16-2019, 06:11 PM   #6
sabloid
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

What if villain bet/shoves river? Easy fold?
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Old 05-16-2019, 06:42 PM   #7
Viral25
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Pre is fine, definitely don't go smaller. Villain is already getting over 2:1 and we want SOME folds here.

Flop and turn seems fine. I think we can go for value on the river even, maybe 350ish. It's sickening if he jams, but i don't think 99-TT is folding.
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:33 PM   #8
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

your stack size and image would be really helpful. decision is different with $500 to if we cover

we really don't HAVE to 4 bet at all. this decision comes down to our pov on his 3 bet range and his folding and continuing range if we 4.

if we are, are doing it for value or as a bluff?

if for value, what hands that we beat are calling?

if as a bluff, what hands in his 3 bet range that we beat are folding?

also, are we 4 bet/folding here to either villain?

Last edited by feel wrath; 05-16-2019 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:05 PM   #9
Minatorr
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Flame me for being a nit, but if this guy is lol flatting AK from the BB vs multiple callers, im throwing JJ into the muck OOP if he is 3-betting a tight UTG + 1 open. let’s not forget also that utg + 1 is uncapped. If we were OTB cold 4b is a little more +EV but even then i’d consider folding

Ap post is fine, tho id size flop smaller with range

I do think coldcalling the 3b is extremely bad though
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:40 PM   #10
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by feel wrath View Post
your stack size and image would be really helpful. decision is different with $500 to if we cover

we really don't HAVE to 4 bet at all. this decision comes down to our pov on his 3 bet range and his folding and continuing range if we 4.

if we are, are doing it for value or as a bluff?

if for value, what hands that we beat are calling?

if as a bluff, what hands in his 3 bet range that we beat are folding?

also, are we 4 bet/folding here to either villain?
My bad, we have to 4 bet/fold. I should've said cold calling is not an option.
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Old 05-16-2019, 09:04 PM   #11
matzah_ball
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Why on earth did we 4bet
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Old 05-16-2019, 09:48 PM   #12
sixsevenoff
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

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Why on earth did we 4bet
If you're going to make a strong opinion/question, especially one that differs from the consensus, you should at least elaborate.
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Old 05-16-2019, 09:57 PM   #13
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

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Originally Posted by sixsevenoff View Post
If you're going to make a strong opinion/question, especially one that differs from the consensus, you should at least elaborate.
he actually doesn't..but anyway, it's the slam dunk correct question

why are we 4 betting JJ against a guy that we know flats AK pre?


not trying to flame, but it's ironic that you posted the above given you didn't elaborate at all on your reasoning
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:04 PM   #14
johnnyBuz
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

+1 to why did you 4bet

Also important: unless you are planning to x/f the river you should be going for thin value yourself
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:11 PM   #15
kekeeke
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Your V does not 3bet AK, 4betting is a mistake, he has a monster too often, UTG is uncapped, frankly you're better off folding than 4betting here. In game I probably call depending what UTG is prepared to do (try to get a read, if you cant muck and never tell anyone).
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:20 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Flame me for being a nit, but if this guy is lol flatting AK from the BB vs multiple callers, im throwing JJ into the muck OOP if he is 3-betting a tight UTG + 1 open. letís not forget also that utg + 1 is uncapped. If we were OTB cold 4b is a little more +EV but even then iíd consider folding
Yep, this is what I was thinking. However just because we saw him flat AK once doesn't mean he's never 3 betting it here. But we do need to discount it a bit. He shouldn't have a lot of bluffs either given that he's 3-betting an EP open.

OOP against 2 strong ranges, I would also make the nit fold here.
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:24 PM   #17
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
+1 to why did you 4bet

Also important: unless you are planning to x/f the river you should be going for thin value yourself
I agree that we could make a small value bet OTR, but with JJ we can consider calling a thin value bet by villain. If he makes a larger polarizing bet we can decide (probably fold). But we're really targeting TT, maybe 99, or something like A2s that he bluffed preflop. I'd rather try to bluff catch or snap off his thin value bet.
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:31 PM   #18
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Most people don’t bet thin themselves so we need to do the heavy lifting. TT/99 are snap checking back so we need to seek out that value. If villain never has TT/99 then 4b pre is a huge mistake.

I’m not expecting AK to bluff either so I think we can comfortably fold if villain raises. I don’t see this villain ever raising AA/KK OTR so it’s kind of a moot point.
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Old 05-16-2019, 11:56 PM   #19
Minatorr
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

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Originally Posted by Koss View Post
Yep, this is what I was thinking. However just because we saw him flat AK once doesn't mean he's never 3 betting it here. But we do need to discount it a bit. He shouldn't have a lot of bluffs either given that he's 3-betting an EP open.

OOP against 2 strong ranges, I would also make the nit fold here.
Yeah we cant assume he never has AK here, but we can safely assume his overall 3b range in this spot will be very tight. Obviously everyone can have their spaz moments and he shows up with 74o once every blue moon but long term doing anything but folding here is probably bad
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:40 AM   #20
browni3141
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Fold JJ and claim ownership of their souls.
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Old 05-17-2019, 04:56 AM   #21
DonkeyRock
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Pre - 4 betting I am not in love with. Flat probably better but if he is as nitty as you say I can get on board the fold train (and I do not like folding).

As played it's fine.
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Old 05-17-2019, 05:06 AM   #22
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

folding depends on our stack size, which we don't know
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:10 AM   #23
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Given your ranging of V1, JJ is a value 3b. However, once V2 3b I'd need to know what range a 4b targets for value. Given the AK hand history, seems like QQ+ which are not folding. I'd just fold pre.

As played, post flop seems fine. Curious what you would do if V shoved flop?
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:36 AM   #24
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Flame me for being a nit, but if this guy is lol flatting AK from the BB vs multiple callers, im throwing JJ into the muck OOP if he is 3-betting a tight UTG + 1 open. letís not forget also that utg + 1 is uncapped. If we were OTB cold 4b is a little more +EV but even then iíd consider folding

Ap post is fine, tho id size flop smaller with range

I do think coldcalling the 3b is extremely bad though
+1.
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:53 AM   #25
svindaloo
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Re: 2/5 NL: JJ in SB faces 3b. Line check

I agree with the consensus that it's a 4bet/fold spot. Calling here is pretty bad, utg is going to 4 bet enough that we just lose $100, and when utg just calls, we're oop 3 ways. So few flops are good for us three way. Utg should never fold for that price if they have a brain at all.

The thread is talking me into folding over a small four bet. I think in theory vs balanced ranges it's definitely a 4bet, but this spot is not going to be a profitable 4bet. I think this shouldn't be a bluff at all. Tight utg+1 getting 3bet by tight passive villain is not a range that contains many bluffs that we're folding out. Further, jj is a bad bluffing hand, we don't block any hands that we want to fold, playability postflop is going to be tough. We could value own ourselves vs qq a fair amount.

For value, at a 2/5 game it would be super super thin. Let's take op's range of v1 (77+, aj+) and then since v2 has been known to flat ak pre he has a strong range here, maybe 50% ak, aa, kk, qq, maaaybe 25% aqs. Does not sound like v2 is the one to think about balancing his 3bet range here, nor is he likely someone who is 3betting 10 10 or 99 vs this player , I think we're giving him way too much credit. JJ is absolutely crushed by those ranges here. Don't have an equity calculator, but it's going to look real bad.

Ina 5/10 game or vs more aggro regs/good regs I like a small 4 bet. In this game I think our only option is fold.



I think only viable option is fold.
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