Pots have been mostly quiet and small tonight at this usually splashy and fun home game. Flops have been low, and people have been grumbly about missing the flop and having to fold broadway cards.

V1: Loose-passive; plays too many weak hands; calls down small bets light
V2: LAG, i've seen this player in a lot of the splashier pots at this game
Hero: on the TAGier side, folding a lot due to trash hands tonight

$.50/1 NL (7 handed)
EP V1 ($60)
MP Hero ($80)
BN V2 ($200)

Hero (~$80) is dealt 5s5d in MP.

V1 raise to $3, Hero calls, HJ Calls, V2 calls

Flop ($12) 5c 4c 3s
V1 c-bets $4, Hero calls, MP calls, V2 raises to $12, V1 folds, Hero reraises to $25, MP folds, V2 calls after about 30 seconds.

4-way to the flop, I didn't want to scare anyone off at first so I call the V1 bet rather than raise. If I raise here, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole table folds given the mood of the night. When V2 raises and V1 folds, I'm pretty sure MP folds no matter what, so I decided to put in a small raise that I think V2 will call at this point because I sense I need to start getting money into the pot now with players dropping off. Any larger and I think V2 folds.

Turn ($70) 4s

Hero (~$55 behind)?

Just raise the flop the first time around.

Hmmm...interesting line, to back-raise flop.

I doubt I'd have slow-played top set by just calling on the first pass. I probably would have raised the first time. But if I just called, and there was a raise behind, I'm not sure I'd raise now, because it looks like we'd be repping a flopped straight when we're either up against the same hand, or a lower set / 2P.

The flat-call-back-raise line is SUPER strong, which seems odd here, with the 2nd nuts, on this low-dynamic board. I honestly don't know if I love it or hate it.

On turn, when the BDFD appears, I think it's usually a jam, but here, as played, I think it's probably better to check, to induce a bet from V, knowing if he checks back turn, we can jam river to make it look like we missed a draw and are trying to buy it.

The story we'd be telling here is "flopped a huge draw and got spicy with it, didn't hit and got scared when the board paired on the turn, now I'm trying to buy it because I missed, and I don't know what else to do, please fold so I don't have to turn over K6cc."

Thanks for the feedback so far. Really appreciate your thoughts.

The reason I didn't raise the first time around is that I want to keep V2 in this hand, and I know that V1 is likely to fold to a raise. So if I raise here, I likely fold out everyone on the flop, and that's the last thing I want. I was hoping to get to a turn that could build some value for other hands (ideally a broadway card) so that I could extract some more value.

This is good feedback. I wonder whether it would've gotten me more value in the long run. Hard to say. If I call the V2 raise and the turn goes x/x, he can just as easily fold to my shove, and then I miss out on some value. That said, if he calls, it's probably worth it. Does he call enough of the time to make this move worth it? I have my doubts.

Raise flop initially for value and protection. In multi-way pots don’t focus too much on “keeping one opponent in the hand”. There are too many variables you can’t control. I mean V2 hadn’t even acted yet and V1 was the preflop raiser and c-bettor. V2 could have QJ and want nothing to do with this hand for all we know.

Also, as strong as your hand is, don’t underestimate how vulnerable it is on this board and the importance of equity denial multi-way. An A/2/6/7/club turn all significantly change the relative strength of your hand if stacks go in. Not to mention there are completely plausible flopped straights that have you beat already.

This is one of those spots, in which we have a hand that is strong, but very vulnerable to a bad run-out. If we bet / raise for value and protection, it tips the strength of our hand, and we might lose value. If we slow-play it, our opponent might suck out. So what do we do?

My general approach is to just flat call when the pot is smaller and the SPR high, and / or when there are aggro or splashy, stab-happy opponents behind me, but when the pot gets larger and people start to get more showdown oriented, I'll amp up the aggression.

Yes, and that’s what I see in my flop play. Flat call to make sure V2 was in and then aggression was shown, so I started amping up the aggression because I wanted to try to fold out any draws V1 might still be considering.

All that said, I’m still interested in what people would do on the turn here.

I mean you have the effective nuts with less than a pot sized bet left. Since we unblock the draws and the board paired and we’re OOP I’d prob just check to let him semibluff or “catch”. The risk is him having a hand like 77 and missing value on a scary river. He’s a LAG so hopefully it’s easy enough to get the rest of your chips in over 2 streets.

I’m still not sure why you were so focused on “keeping V2 in”. As stated, his range is so wide he may be completely checked out on that flop.

It's a weird spot. We played the second nuts like it was the nuts, and now our hand has gotten even stronger, but it's still the 2nd nuts, yet what was the nuts has now been significantly downgraded.

Your flop line is super-strong. If I'm V, I'm putting you on 76s, especially 76cc, or A2s, especially A2cc, or 55 for value. For bluffs, maybe something like A3cc, 66, or 65s.

What can V call with? It's got to be a reasonably strong hand, or a hand that has decent equity to improve against our strong range. I'd think he'd re-raise if he had a straight, unless it was the low-end, or he had the club draw to go with it. He could have a lot of 2P or worse sets that turned a boat, 1P + a draw, or just the nut flush draw.

I think it's time to pump the brakes and let V catch up or take the lead.

If we were mostly repping a straight on the flop, we might barrel here on the turn, with two flush draws on board, or we might check because the board paired, and our straights un-block V's boats. But we actually have top boat, and we're only losing to 1 combo of 44. If we jam, V is probably folding most of his flush draws, and might even fold some A2 combos.

If we check, it might look like we were raising as a semi-bluff on the flop with a hand that didn't improve on the turn, like A3cc, 66, or 65s. V can bet some of his value hands and semi-bluff with some of his draws.

If it checks through, we can jam river. We can get more value from V's entire range if we slow down on the turn.

Results:


Thanks, all.

You should work on trying to range your opponents and then act in a way that benefits you vs that range

Flat on the flop is terrible. This is 3 wheel-card 2-flush flop is extremely wet. It is connected, hits low cards, any ace has a straight draw and any pp is at least an overpair. It is unlikely you will take it down and you need to protect your hand. Backraise looks too strong.

After the flop, I’m putting V2 on A2-AJo, A2-A8s, maybe K2-KJs, 22-44, 66-88, and a few sc’s like 67, 78, maybe 54, 43, 32? Big overpairs would’ve 3b pre. Random broadways probably don’t raise the flop. Does this look right?

I can see now that leading the turn after the board pairs looks like an absolute monster, and checking would have been the right play to keep that range involved.

Yeah, in retrospect I see that my flop play was messy. Next time I’m in this spot I’m raising on the flop, probably to ~$12.