yes. call it off

Agree, but also worth noting that mid-ranked SCs like have more RIO implications as they touch bway ranges that tend to be more prevalent in 4-5 way pots. 89s on TJQ - I'm sure there ae threads devoted to this, but eorth mentioning as 45s may do better than T9s in these spots.

Given our totally **** relative and absolute position, our stack depth, and the recent flop dynamics, I'm inclined to just turn my hand into a bluff preflop and 3bet. That might be nitty, but I don't anticipate postflop being a whole lot of fun to play when we hit our draws.

We can also flat and lead out when we flop well since x/r'ing isn't gonna get the usual level of respect from V, and his cbetting range should be pretty strong on this particular board in a MW pot where one of his opponents has already raised his cbets a few times. And again, our relative position blows.

As played, x/odds-call the turn. Villain is generally strong here when he overcalls behind the cold-caller, especially when he gives the speech. x/r'ing would make no sense because villain's b/f'ing range is very slim when his already strong range bombs into a sidepot, and heck, we even have SDV against the NFD now.

Also, by 3!, do you mean a raise of a bet? That's not a 3!; that's just a raise. **** was so confusing, it took me like 10 minutes to read the history.

Post-grunch: Apparently I disagree with pretty much everyone on pretty much every street.

I stand by the fact that the combination of flatting pre and checking this flop is not good. I also think 3b'ing is pretty much always better than folding, and it's just a matter of whether we can turn a profit off calling an additional 7bbs here.

Turn is a tricky spot, and admittedly checking doesn't accomplish much if he's just gonna shove his Jx+ anyway, but shoving doesn't accomplish much if he's not folding anything.

Right, those are definitely some of the things to think about.

Results:

You did the right thing at showdown. When you bink a flush, just show. The rules of showdown are that if you think you have the best hand, then you should table it immediately. All the other bylaws are just for when there's a giant staring contest and no one thinks their hand is any good.

And the preflop decisions aren't limited to call or fold. I would probably 3b here.

Against almost all random 1/2 players I always show in a situation like this but Villain is a reg who I have a lot of history with so there is a decent amount of value in seeing his hand in a pot like this.

& I don't like 3!ing hands that have the possibility of flopping so well, I prefer to 3! bluff hands with blockers/hands at the top of my folding range pre.

edit: I also made a straight-flush

The point is that if you move this hand into your folding range, then it IS the top of your folding range. No other candidate is going to play as well in a 3! pot 350bbs deep OOP with the initiative than this one.

And ignoring the rules of #1 rule of showdown because villain is a reg and you can get good information on him when he shows is--pretty much by definition--angling. It's one of the more culturally accepted angles because you can just be like, "I called, you show," but it's an angle none-the-less.

yeah, I am definately curious as to what he was overshoving against you on the turn. Hard to imagine that he was shoving just a naked overpair. Would have really liked to have seen if he spiked a set on the flop, and then breakdown his play from there.

I disagree. As I am flipping over my cards in a big hand, I will look at the dealer and tell them, "I want to see that hand" before my V has a chance to muck their cards. There is nothing angling about that. I am in the process of showing my hand and the dealer knows that I want to see the other hand. Or, if I know them well and we are friends, I will just tell them to show me their hand, which most opponents will comply with instantly. Players really want to show their hands when you get lucky and bink, just so that they can show you that they were ahead and you got lucky. Players really only don't want to show when they were bluffing. All other cases, they usually do. at least at 2/5 and lower.

I don't want to derail the thread so this will be my last post on the matter.

But again, the first rule of showdown is to table your hand if you believe it is likely best. Seeing as how we hold the super dooper mega immortal nuts, it's hard to argue that we're not violating that rule/gentleman's agreement by not tabling right away.

I realize that this rule is unenforceable, and as us young gun sharks overrun the game, it's become more okay to stretch rules right up to their boundary to gain every advantage possible alla Bill Belichick. but yes this would be without a doubt a slowroll and so if you care about that sorta thing then don't do it.

And in this case we're doing it with the expressed intent to gain an undue edge on our opponent. Besides I expect villain to have something boring like AJ+ 95%+ of the time and expect to rarely change my view of villain based on what he shows.

Straight flush is good sir.

The actual rule is that if I called his bet he has to show first though...

The dealer actually turned to him after I tabled my hand and said "straight flush, can you beat that sir." Got the dealer to needle my opponent for me lol

You flopped monster equity.
Shove the turn in the dark and don't look back