Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-08-2013, 02:56 PM   #1
Calidesto
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: CA
Posts: 75
obvious call?

1-2... I'm a relative beginner
Just sat down with $200 (2 orbs) so no real info on anyone
limps & folds to me otb, raise to 14 with JJ
folds to sb who calls
Flop 338r
sb all in for around 70

is my thinking correct here?
V wouldn't call a raise pf oop with a 3 (other than 33)... or he's very sure he can outplay me (prob true)
If he had called with a3, k3 or 83 type hand, why would he try n push me out without getting more value.
So I put him on a p pair... so jj worth the call?
Calidesto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 02:59 PM   #2
Hailey
stranger
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 9
Re: obvious call?

Snap Call. He can shove any PP or 8. And I'm not even counting random spazzes with Overcard type hands.
Hailey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 03:10 PM   #3
bulls_horn
Pooh-Bah
 
bulls_horn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,402
Re: obvious call?

I wouldn't say "obvious", but I wouldn't bang on you too hard for making the call.

If you feel V could be shoving with a whiffed AK here, fine, make the crying call.

Your reasoning doesn't seem too bad. If he has QQ+, he likely would've 3bet pre.
bulls_horn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 03:42 PM   #4
bortron5000
journeyman
 
bortron5000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 214
Call. No 3bet pre, basically you only have to worry about 88, A3s, or 33. If so, no regrets on calling it off. Any 8 with a decent kicker can be shoving here.
bortron5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 04:51 PM   #5
derada4
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,544
Snap call
derada4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 05:41 PM   #6
Turyia
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Alleged awesome guy Turyia/Moksha
Posts: 1,444
Re: obvious call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calidesto View Post
1-2... I'm a relative beginner
Just sat down with $200 (2 orbs) so no real info on anyone
limps & folds to me otb, raise to 14 with JJ
folds to sb who calls
Flop 338r
sb all in for around 70

is my thinking correct here?
V wouldn't call a raise pf oop with a 3 (other than 33)... or he's very sure he can outplay me (prob true)
If he had called with a3, k3 or 83 type hand, why would he try n push me out without getting more value.
So I put him on a p pair... so jj worth the call?
your thinking isnt really correct, but you arrive at the correct conclusion in this case.

Don't put your opponent on hands, put them on ranges.

its not unreasonable to think V would call you with a 3 in a 1/2 game. the question you have to ask is what percentage of the V's possible hands that are consistent with his play up until this point beat you.

SO what hands that are consistent with his play beat you? Well, there's KK, AA and QQ (6 combos each). We would normally expect him to 3-bet out of his blinds with those kind of hands, but given that hes a short stack, maybe hes decided to try to get action by just flatting then shoving a flop that has no overcards to his pair and hoping you call with worse 1-pr hands. This is not the default line i would expect a v to take (and incidentally its pretty awful)... but its certainly a line i have seen before and i wouldnt be terribly surprised.

he could have 88 (3 combos exist), 33 (1 combo exists) or some other hand with a 3 in it. At a 1/2 game A3 suited (2 combos) or offsuit (6 combos) will sometimes call here and look at a flop, though he isnt nearly deep enough to do so. K3 suited is by no means a sure thing call, but if my opponent rolls over K3 suited at show down here, im certainly not going to void my bowels in surprise on the spot.

But as you have observed, would our opponent play flopped trips or a boat this way? After all, he must know that he is drawing us practically dead if he has a 3 in his hand (let alone a boat). Don't we think he would check a monster like this to our likely c-bet at least some of the time? He has a monster hand, and three streets to get his seventy bucks in the pot. We have to think that it would occur to him at least sometimes that he should play it a bit slower.

so what could he have that we beat. Well, any eight for starters, and there are probably quite a few in his range including a8 suited and off suit, and a ton of one and 2 gam connectors. Also 99 or tt. After all, he doesnt know that you have JJ. Maybe he thinks that his pair is good on this relatively innocuous board. He could also have 44, 55, 66, or 77 and he figures that his 2 pr is good on a board like that because not many of your raising hands contain an 8. Since practically any card that could come on the turn makes his hand relatively weaker, it makes sense for him to get all his money in now.

He could also be bluffing. If he has nothing, he probably knows that right now is his one and only opportunity to bluff at this pot.. once he checks to you and you c-bet, even if you have nothing too his all in raise is not enough to get you off high overcards. Maybe he has a big ace and he missed. He figures he can get his money in now and maybe youll fold, but even if you call he probably has 6 clean outs to win the pot, since you are rarely going to be very strong on this board.

all in all, because there are so many hands in his range that you beat, but only a very few that are beating you, this is a snap call, as others have noted. But it isnt a snap call because you "put him on an 8" ....

Last edited by Turyia; 06-08-2013 at 05:49 PM.
Turyia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 06:06 PM   #7
Calidesto
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: CA
Posts: 75
Re: obvious call?

^...Thanks.. Yes i'm obviously trying to get my head round 'ranges'... I get it, on paper, but in a game with everyone watching to see what the fish is going to do, my ranging seems to invert itself into a what he can't have rather than than putting him 'on' a range... Also some people at these games are all over the place so almost impossible (for me) to range...Nothing a few thousand hands wont solve i guess...
Calidesto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 06:17 PM   #8
bortron5000
journeyman
 
bortron5000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 214
Re: obvious call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calidesto View Post
^...Thanks.. Yes i'm obviously trying to get my head round 'ranges'... I get it, on paper, but in a game with everyone watching to see what the fish is going to do, my ranging seems to invert itself into a what he can't have rather than than putting him 'on' a range... Also some people at these games are all over the place so almost impossible (for me) to range...Nothing a few thousand hands wont solve i guess...
You're on the right track by posting hand histories here. Keep it up, you will be the one lurking on the fishies soon enough.
bortron5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 06:21 PM   #9
NuklearWinter
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,724
Re: obvious call?

NuklearWinter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 08:53 PM   #10
MRB
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 170
Re: obvious call?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bortron5000 View Post
Call. No 3bet pre, basically you only have to worry about 88, A3s, or 33. If so, no regrets on calling it off. Any 8 with a decent kicker can be shoving here.
This can very much be an overpair, I've seen plenty of folks play AA and KK this way. And it can be a three of some kind, or pocket 8s. However, this does seem a strange line with a three or 88.

And it can also be an overpair you beat, like 99 or TT, or tptk, like A8. And it could be something crazy. Against an unknown, I think it's a call getting 10-7 roughly on your money.
MRB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 08:54 PM   #11
stinkubus
Pooh-Bah
 
stinkubus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 4,335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turyia View Post
your thinking isnt really correct, but you arrive at the correct conclusion in this case.

Don't put your opponent on hands, put them on ranges.

its not unreasonable to think V would call you with a 3 in a 1/2 game. the question you have to ask is what percentage of the V's possible hands that are consistent with his play up until this point beat you.

SO what hands that are consistent with his play beat you? Well, there's KK, AA and QQ (6 combos each). We would normally expect him to 3-bet out of his blinds with those kind of hands, but given that hes a short stack, maybe hes decided to try to get action by just flatting then shoving a flop that has no overcards to his pair and hoping you call with worse 1-pr hands. This is not the default line i would expect a v to take (and incidentally its pretty awful)... but its certainly a line i have seen before and i wouldnt be terribly surprised.

he could have 88 (3 combos exist), 33 (1 combo exists) or some other hand with a 3 in it. At a 1/2 game A3 suited (2 combos) or offsuit (6 combos) will sometimes call here and look at a flop, though he isnt nearly deep enough to do so. K3 suited is by no means a sure thing call, but if my opponent rolls over K3 suited at show down here, im certainly not going to void my bowels in surprise on the spot.

But as you have observed, would our opponent play flopped trips or a boat this way? After all, he must know that he is drawing us practically dead if he has a 3 in his hand (let alone a boat). Don't we think he would check a monster like this to our likely c-bet at least some of the time? He has a monster hand, and three streets to get his seventy bucks in the pot. We have to think that it would occur to him at least sometimes that he should play it a bit slower.

so what could he have that we beat. Well, any eight for starters, and there are probably quite a few in his range including a8 suited and off suit, and a ton of one and 2 gam connectors. Also 99 or tt. After all, he doesnt know that you have JJ. Maybe he thinks that his pair is good on this relatively innocuous board. He could also have 44, 55, 66, or 77 and he figures that his 2 pr is good on a board like that because not many of your raising hands contain an 8. Since practically any card that could come on the turn makes his hand relatively weaker, it makes sense for him to get all his money in now.

He could also be bluffing. If he has nothing, he probably knows that right now is his one and only opportunity to bluff at this pot.. once he checks to you and you c-bet, even if you have nothing too his all in raise is not enough to get you off high overcards. Maybe he has a big ace and he missed. He figures he can get his money in now and maybe youll fold, but even if you call he probably has 6 clean outs to win the pot, since you are rarely going to be very strong on this board.

all in all, because there are so many hands in his range that you beat, but only a very few that are beating you, this is a snap call, as others have noted. But it isnt a snap call because you "put him on an 8" ....
Pps aren't a range????
stinkubus is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive