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Nut flush draw OOP unusual flop spot Nut flush draw OOP unusual flop spot

06-13-2018 , 12:14 PM
The 'unusual' thing was that as many as three other players were 'interested' in the flop.

1/2 game
Hero: UTG AcQc

I would raise like 80% of the time but decide to limp, with intention of likely 3!ing.

No raises, 5 players see the flop.

Flop Kc 7c 2s

I check with intention of raising or shoving.

UTG+2 (loose competent player) bets 10, MP1 calls (tight competent), button (TAG competent) makes it 35.

Hero action?
Everyone has about $200.
Nut flush draw OOP unusual flop spot Quote
06-13-2018 , 12:31 PM
I don't like the limp/rr plan. Limp/rr with AA makes sense in games where you get players to put a lot more in pre with non-permiums, but I'm not especially happy with being OOP with AQ on a lot of flops that we miss. Your balance plan is reasonable but probably not necessary at 1/2.

I'm calling out flop looking to go 5 ways to the turn with a big pot, more behind, and a draw to the nuts. We aren't likely to fold out everyone with a made hand and we don't want to fold out worse flush draws.

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Nut flush draw OOP unusual flop spot Quote
06-13-2018 , 01:22 PM
Raise pre and lead flop.

AP, call and likely check all turns OOP.
Nut flush draw OOP unusual flop spot Quote
06-13-2018 , 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanvliet
Flop Kc 7c 2s

I check with intention of raising or shoving.

UTG+2 (loose competent player) bets 10, MP1 calls (tight competent), button (TAG competent) makes it 35.

Hero action?
You said you had the intention of raising or shoving, so now you have the opportunity and... I suppose you can go back in time and bet out on the flop; it's a good one for your hand. Or call and keep the UTG+2 in the hand.

Raise pre.
Nut flush draw OOP unusual flop spot Quote
06-13-2018 , 03:01 PM
Call to potentially keep others in with a chance to overflush someone. Pairing ace may also be good.
Nut flush draw OOP unusual flop spot Quote
06-14-2018 , 01:39 AM
I'd lead flop. AP, flat seems super clear. Button is going to have 22 a lot.
Nut flush draw OOP unusual flop spot Quote
06-14-2018 , 03:24 AM
Personally, as played I'd call here, because if he's c/r on flop you could still get paid off when the flush hits. Lots of guys at 1/2 play medium flushes like they're the nuts.
Nut flush draw OOP unusual flop spot Quote
06-14-2018 , 08:15 AM
I think the call on flop is best. Hope another villain plays a worse flush draw. And hitting an Ace could be good.

I think a shove is a losing play. If UTG+2 and MP1 both have a K (ok this is a pessimistic view) and we assume BTN would have raised pre with AK/KQ, then BTN has only 8 combos of KJ/KT. He has 6 combos of sets, and 1 combo of Kings Up if he started with KXs. If he folds KJ/KT to a shove (and others fold their Kings) then we pick up the dead 65 about half the time. The other times our equity means our EV is something like -85. So we're about -20 EV over his range. If UTG+2 or MP1 do not have a King then BTN combos of KJ/KT widen and the shove is a bit better. But on the other hand, UTG+2/MP1 could have a set or two pair... I feel the overall combination of those two factors would take my EV even worse than -$20 but I haven't crunched the math on that. I think these competent villains will fold worse FDs to my shove. So, overall, the shove feels like a negative EV.

The trouble with a call is that I am OOP and only getting 1.86:1 pot odds which isn't good enough to try hitting an Ace or Club on next card. Obv, there are implied odds, but against competent/sober villains, these are somewhat small. I think UTG+2/MP1 are folding King+weak kicker and I'm sure the tight villain will fold a worse FD or at least he won't put further $$$s in if Club peels off given his two opponents.

But overall I'm sure a call is better than a shove or a fold.

In the game, I decided to fold! I didn't like the shove and didn't like the call with the 1:86 pot odds and the villains' competence. Against many other villains I would call. A lot of players at 1/2 will play worse FDs for more $$$s but I didn't think these guys would.

But still, I should have called for the combined value of
- hoping to get action from worse FDs
- get some value from the implied odds if Club peels on turn
- get some value if an Ace comes.

Obviously it felt terrible to fold such a great flop - I butchered the hand, but there you go! Horrible!!! I was so fixated on my check/shove that I didn't put enough thought into just calling when the shove started feeling wrong after 3 villains showed an interest.
Nut flush draw OOP unusual flop spot Quote

      
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