Game: Live 1/2
Hand: K6ss
Position: BTN
Stack: 230$
Villain: (BB, Covers), Really good thinking player, adapts to situation, aggressive with draws. 20-25yo

Preflop Action: UTG limps, UTG+1 raises to 6$, MP calls, I call, BB calls, UTG calls. (30$)
Flop: AT8ssh
Action: UTG+1 continues and bets 10$, MP calls, I call, BB calls, UTG folds. (70$)
Turn: Jd
Action: UTG+1 checks, MP bets 22$, I call, V raises to 82$, folds to me, (180$ pot, 60$ to call, I have 190$ left)

Whats my move? Fold, Call or Shove ?

This is a bit loose of a call preflop.

As played, getting 3:1 and your outs are clean, I'm calling this. V just check/raised 2 people, it's unlikely to be a bluff. He's trying to play for stacks. Call and bink. Your flush will likely get paid, your straight won't (unless it's a chop).

Pretty sure you need to hit hard here, Kx wont win you this pot.
Don't think a raising V will fold getting 3 to 1 if you shove.
You do have the advantage of just flatting all streets so far.
V raise size is to keep ppl in the pot, not isolate or cause folds.
You are priced into the call.

This is definitely a gamble spot. I like the call even though it's very close to =EV to shove since we have the 2 queens to possibly make up for any spades he may have. We don't play poker to make =EV plays. The Turn call is also =EV, but it's at a discount .. if we don't get paid, we don't get paid.

A Turn shove here does have the aspects of a c/r but if he has a straight already it's of no use and I would suspect he is not really doing this with less than 2 pair.

He may bluff/have the flush anyway. Your River shove will look a little bluffy to him .. maybe. GL

I know it's a bit loose preflop, I wouldn't usually do this, but in position against a weak raiser I decided it was worth playing for 6$ and maybe try to make a move if I miss the flop and I'm checked to.

V is a really good aggressive player that doesn't make many mistakes, I I think V's range is pretty wide here, remember he had only 4$ to call on the BB (pot was 27$) so he could have pretty much anything preflop (he actually would have raised 88+, AJo+, ATs+, QJs+, KQo+). On the flop he had 10$ to call into 60$, he would call any GS, any weak FD (not raise because there isn't that much FE). Also he would have reraised wide with an A or better. So OTF I put him on any draw or a ten most likely, he would probably have folded an 8, maybe even a ten, so he's most likely on a draw. Now the J comes OTT (I think he would have raised KQ preflop so I don't think he has the straight). Now he faces weak bets again, so he really well might think he could take it down by raising big, folding other weak A or any other pair. That said, I don't think he has a lot of made hands OTT other than a made low straight, I think his range consists mostly of straight draws and flush draw like QXss, or Q7xx (double GS), or a low made straight with Q9 or 97.

Fold preflop! If you have a read on Villan preflop then squeeze!

Fold AP

Yes it can be a good play to either fold, call or squeeze preflop, but thats not my main concern here lol, I think folding is way too conservative here, since I think V range consists in a lot of draws which we crush with the nut draw (and an overcard if we miss).

You can't beat anything right now, I find it hard to believe that this is the best spot you can find to play a big pot against this Villan

It in no mean the best spot lol it's just a +EV spot I need to play lol (PS: My BR consists of more than 1 BI)

What do you guys think of the hands I'm putting V on?

"V is a really good aggressive player that doesn't make many mistakes, I I think V's range is pretty wide here, remember he had only 4$ to call on the BB (pot was 27$) so he could have pretty much anything preflop (he actually would have raised 88+, AJo+, ATs+, QJs+, KQo+). On the flop he had 10$ to call into 60$, he would call any GS, any weak FD (not raise because there isn't that much FE). Also he would have reraised wide with an A or better. So OTF I put him on any draw or a ten most likely, he would probably have folded an 8, maybe even a ten, so he's most likely on a draw. Now the J comes OTT (I think he would have raised KQ preflop so I don't think he has the straight). Now he faces weak bets again, so he really well might think he could take it down by raising big, folding other weak A or any other pair. That said, I don't think he has a lot of made hands OTT other than a made low straight, I think his range consists mostly of straight draws and flush draw like QXss, or Q7xx (double GS), or a low made straight with Q9 or 97. "

You should have raised the turn the first time around.

You only have 11 clean outs. The 3 non-flush Qs might be a split pot. I believe you'll only have $130 left when you call. Your max IO is a little over 5:1 and you're getting 3:1. You have to get villain's stack over 50% of the time you hit a flush to justify calling. If you're certain you'll his stack if the flush hits, I guess you can call and gamble. I think people generally overestimate their IO with flush draws and I'd typically lean toward a fold.

And fold pre, it's really not even close.

I think this range is too narrow. First off, while I don't know your villain I'd be surprised if he's 3-betting as wide as you say he is. He'd really 3-bet hands like 88, 99, AJo, QJs or KQo from the big blind? I don't play with him but that's an extremely wide range to 3-bet with.

Also, if his range is wide here, he can have a ton of two pair hands (JT, J8, T8, A8, AT, etc.) When he makes a big bet on the turn, I think the J helped him and either gave him two pair, turned a weak made hand (like QT) into a pair and a GS, or turned a GS into a pair and a GS. He obviously can have all the straights too.

I just call. You have 12 outs, so you're 3:1 to improve, and you're basically getting 3:1 on the call. Don't like shoving because I don't think you have a lot of FE. I think V has at least a pair, and what value hands do you have that call very small bets on both flop and turn? A good V will recognize that you're drawing a lot here on a wet board and call your shove.

I don't think there are that many flush draws in V's range. The A, K, T, 8 and 6 of spades in our hand or on the board. How many Qxs hands does V really play? QJs is pair and a flush draw, so it's ahead of you and never folding now. Q9s is a made flush. Does he really play Q7s, Q5s or worse? A good, thinking player really should be folding those hand from the BB pre, even to a small bet, since they're junk. Other spades he could have are J9s (pair + a FD and an open end straight draw), 97s (straight) and stuff like 75s or 54s.

Agreed with not folding, but think a shove is almost always getting called by a hand that's ahead of us right now, so why do it when we can draw for cheap.

Pre, 3bet to $25 or $30 is pretty tempting with that weak action, I'd have to look to find a reason not to do it. I wouldn't fold in this spot.

Every single bet/raise in this hand is so lol small, so I see the temptation with passively chasing, but I'd lean toward raising the flop to $50 or so.

Turn looks like it might be a raise the first time around although I'd wonder about FE.

AP, 2nd time around, might as well call and get there. Expecting FE with a shove seems pretty optimistic.

I don't think I have enough fold equity against 4 players the 1st time around

Definitely a call, absolutely not a raise/shove.

With the two draws you have, you want to control the pot size, your hand is an obvious loser without making the draws and overall I don't think you're going to have much FE on any brick river card at all, so if you hit the flush/straight all your chips are going to get in that pot on the river, you're going to clean house and make out like a bandit.

If you don't hit, you want to have as few of your chips in before you realize you're dead in the water and don't try to bluff a miss. Don't be in a rush to get your money in early if you have nothing and aren't anticipating winning by inducing folds.

^ Why does UTG+1 keep acting out of turn? Aren't there penalties for that? I know Scott Seiver would get very upset.

^ Well, shoving makes absolutely no sense, so maybe rule that out. And calling to catch bluffs on the next street is probably not a plan. So you would usually be calling for value, and in this case it's so close EV-wise, that it probably doesn't matter much.

You would be giving him positive reinforcement if you call and then muck, which you will probably be doing a lot.

Just IMO, I think calling makes the sitch much more messy and I would just fold.

You could call and the times he checks a blank river, make a small bluff, like post oak. But this guy is probably looking you up.

[QUOTE=MIB211;49052566]I think this range is too narrow. First off, while I don't know your villain I'd be surprised if he's 3-betting as wide as you say he is. He'd really 3-bet hands like 88, 99, AJo, QJs or KQo from the big blind? I don't play with him but that's an extremely wide range to 3-bet with.
QUOTE]

I know this is a wide 3-betting range, put the small opening bet looks really weak and I would definitely 3-bet those hands because their probably better than all the callers hands and even the original raiser.

And your probably right, a call would probably have been a better move than a shove... I thought I had FE on the spot, but thinking back at it I don't have all that much FE..

Consider the worst case scenario, equity wise, and make the PO+IO call.