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In one of the stickys in the llsnl section i was reading a post from Venice commenting about player observation. He was saying to watch how many hands a villian plays every orbit. If he enters the pot 3/10 he is tight and anything over that is loose. Then went on to say after a few hours you should be able to determine this for everyone at the table.

The problem Im having is in knowing to try to watch everyone at the same time and I lose track of what everyone is doing. If I watch only one or two players and try to keep track that way it seems to take forever. In gereral in trying to build a profile on opponents and put them on a range should I start by watching one person at a time? Also it said to try and keep track if someone is mostly calling or raising to determine if they are loose or passive. It makes sense in theory but I'm having a hard time executing these observations in game (playing at Bovada right now)

Venice said it would take 20 sessions before this skill is ingrained. I have been able to so far label some players accurately but then somtimes they get up from the table and I have to start over or the table changes. Its just harder then it seems on paper...

I'd start with the two players to your left and the one to the right and ignore the rest to start. Often you can characterize people quickly. If you played 15 hands and the villain has limped in on 8 of them, you can stop right there and know he's playing all broadway, pairs and connectors. Just move on to the next player a bit further away.

Ok that further clears things up, when you began doing this were you writing this down just curious

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Use donkey tracker app on your phone

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I talk about this in my PG&C, here is the link to a specific post

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1174

I provide an example and step through some thought processes

the discussion continues for another few posts starting here
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...l#post42362282

looking that over now, thanks. Amazes me how helpful the mods are in this forum

Ok you said : Other things to NOTE: Notice that in the hand the Old man UTG+1 limped and then folded to the raise. So I would guess he is somewhat competent and wanted to see a cheap flop with a SC but got priced out and had the discipline to fold. Same with the Player to the Lady's left so based on their limp folds I would initially assign them some competence. If they were to limp/call in future hands then I would range them for baby pocket pairs looking to set mine or Axs looking to hit the nut flush. Thus, against them if I had AK in position and raised preflop and they limp called me and the board hit


Im taking a lot away from everything I read there, but have a question about this in particular. Why would someone limp fold suited connectors but limp call with Axs? Playing lately I have been having a little trouble knowing what hands are worthy of a call after I limp. I know I can set mine with pps if villian has 10x his raise left in his stack, and with SC if he has 20x his raise left behind. What is the number for Axs and how much does this change for all three if I am not the one closing out the action and could possibly get squeezed?

Further along you showed how you made a play based on a bet sizing tell:


I'm in the CO with A3 2 players limp to me, I raise to 75, EP, MP, and BTN call my raise, 4-way action.

Flop(300) 3 2 7
EP (1.3K-ish) leads out 200, MP folds, I call, BTN folds, heads up.

Turn(700) 9
EP bets 350, I shove putting him all in, EP shows visible disgust, flicks his cards a couple of times, shakes his head and calls.

River(3k) 8
I show A3cc, V looks at the board, looks at his hand, shakes his head and folds...

My shove in this spot was based on weakness showed by EP. If EP had any kind of value hand he is potting the turn rather than trying to pot control it with a draw out there. So there is a good chance he is on a draw and/or has a weak value hand I can push off with a turn shove since I was the preflop raiser. Lastly, if he is on a draw the stack sizes and pot sizes are such that he can make an incorrect call which he did.


This line of thinking makes sense to me, I am just really curious how you had the courage to make such a strong play against someone based on basically one bet sizing. Maybe because you were playing much higher stakes it made the bet sizing tell more reliable at a table where players mostly always conscious of why they are betting a certain amount. In a lower stakes game it might be harder for someone to find a fold?

Suited Aces play very well multiway because you don't have to worry about being over flushed. Because of that, they are easier to play OOP too. They play relatively poorly in HU pots. With the suited Ace you are actually targeting the field as a whole so I'm more concerned with the stack depth of all players in the hand rather than just the preflop raiser. Not sure what the general rule of thumb should be. I tend to get in there if it's fairly cheap. Most people seem to overrate the suited ace paying too much to see flops with them.

i c

This was one of the most helpful post I came across in my study session tonight, is there more you can show me or recommend to show your thought process on other hands. I am working on note taking/observation and making correct adjustments for the future.

Sure, just start at the beginning of my PG&C thread I linked you to.

I discuss a ton of hands in that thread, start at page one and enjoy