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Old 02-22-2012, 07:12 PM   #201
Illiterate
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

2/5 hand:

Villain ($350) is a tight, sometimes aggressive, but not entirely TAG regular. Bought in for $200, doubled up through Hero an hour ago taking a l/c, c/c, c/cai line with KTs in EP against Hero's AQ on a QJ6Ax board.

Hero covers, playing an ABC TAG game so far tonight. All bets have been perceived to be for value. May be seen as a nit by the rest of the table due to card deadness.

PREFLOP:

Villain limps UTG, Hero raises to $20 with KJ from HJ, folds to villain who calls.

FLOP: K 6 4 (pot $42)

Villain checks, Hero bets $30, Villain calls

TURN: 2 (pot $102)

Villain checks, Hero bets $65, Villain calls.

RIVER: 3 (pot $232)

Villain leads out $100, hero ??

I think villain's range here is A2hh-A9hh, KQ, KT, maybe K9. I thought 66-22 might be in there too, but in retrospect small pairs don't make sense with this board texture (would probably raise sets/fold the gutshot pairs). His bet sizing is peculiar. I know against a looser villain he would shove for value. Easy fold OTR with TPGK?
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:18 PM   #202
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Not fond of the turn bet. 2 smacks his range ott. Otr its a fold, you beat absolutely nothing that is consistent with his line.
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:30 PM   #203
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Not fond of the turn bet. 2 smacks his range ott. Otr its a fold, you beat absolutely nothing that is consistent with his line.
Not sure what you mean OTT. The 2s doesn't seem to smack his range. It only completes 2 draws (neither hugely likely). If it makes villain 2pr often then his range is wide enough and he is calling loose enough to bet for value.

The turn seems like a super easy vbet as he already could have a ton of stuff you beat and the turn adds draws to some o the weaker hands he calls the flop with that will now call.

The river is a super easy snap fold though. He's never doing this with a K and the only thing you beat are missed pair+backdoor spades hands which I wouldn't give him credit for being able to turn into a bluff.
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:55 PM   #204
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

@Jack my whole thinking was the kings we lose too along with sets villain could show up with.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:25 PM   #205
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Fold river for sure. Not sure I bet turn here. Even with the FD out, this is a hand I'd like to pot control.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:44 PM   #206
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Not fond of the turn bet. 2 smacks his range ott. Otr its a fold, you beat absolutely nothing that is consistent with his line.
The 2 OTT does nothing for his range. A tight villain is not floating the flop with deuces on a K high board (or really any board he didnt flop a set with) Trust me on this. If he is we need to go back an think about V's description.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:49 PM   #207
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The 2 OTT does nothing for his range. A tight villain is not floating the flop with deuces on a K high board (or really any board he didnt flop a set with) Trust me on this. If he is we need to go back an think about V's description.
Did op say he had a tight limp call range?, or his continuation range was tight because he is a tight player?

If his calling range otf is tight he still can show up with sets and kings that beat us.

If his limping range is weak, he could show up here with suited kings that hit a funky two pair.

Idk about you but I'm not trying to max out value from this type of player.
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:01 PM   #208
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Im always trying max out value against every player... Its just some have different max values.

FDs, KQ+ and a set OTF are more in his range IMO. Given his line though I would eliminate sets (not completely) and say it is more consistent with a FD and KQ+
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:11 PM   #209
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Im always trying max out value against every player... Its just some have different max values.

FDs, KQ+ and a set OTF are more in his range IMO. Given his line though I would eliminate sets (not completely) and say it is more consistent with a FD and KQ+
I agree with the line if you take out sets. If you you include sets. Then going for max value with kj is pretty thin. River is a fold anyway.
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:16 PM   #210
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

We have different definitions of max value. Seems like you are saying max value is playing for stacks. To me it means squeezing as much value from a player as possible. Sometimes it means stacks sometimes it means $10.
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:21 PM   #211
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We have different definitions of max value. Seems like you are saying max value is playing for stacks. To me it means squeezing as much value from a player as possible. Sometimes it means stacks sometimes it means $10.
Ace I'm talking about eeking out anyvalue on the right board texture/villain just like you are. So if that means eeking out 10 extra dollars I'm all for it. But vs this type of villain his continuation range crushes kj. So I would pot control after a 30>50 pot.

Does it make sense now?
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:54 PM   #212
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I *really* think the 2s is a blank. Very strongly. I just don't see a need to try to get three streets of value out of TPGK out of any but a donator. If we de-leverage OTT, we should be able to get another street against all of V's range except missed FDs. If we bet turn, we are only getting anything more in on the river if we are in bad shape.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:07 PM   #213
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

If V is on a FD it is criminal not to bet the turn. Any bricks and he shuts down. IMO.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:56 PM   #214
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Agree, but with a tight V I think more of his range is not FD than is. With a "but it's soooted player," I bet turn all day.
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:37 AM   #215
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Sooooooooooooted!!!
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:40 AM   #216
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I'd probably need a few more hours of sitting with this villain to pinpoint his limp/calling range, but I felt that if he's doing it with KTs, there should be some other marginal hands such as weak suited aces, QThh, JThh, QJhh, etc.

With such a high probability of an FD on the turn, I felt like I had to charge the draw. My initial thought was that the turn bet should have been somewhere around $75-80. Interesting that so many are advocating checking back here, and I don't quite understand why. I think it's time to do some reading on pot control
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:33 AM   #217
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

You have TP 3rd Kicker. The board is pretty dry. Sure there's a FD out, but nothing else that hits a l/c pre, c/c flop range for a tight player very hard. AK would likely have raised pre, so range is likely QK, 77-TT, sets, and FDs, with maybe a few chops and KT in there.

You pretty much have to limit yourself to two streets here, or you're likely playing for stacks, and this is *not* a hand you want to do that with. So then it becomes a question of whether you want to bet turn, and lose most of his range except the FDs and the hands you are doing poorly against, or check the turn and keep his range wider on the river, but give him a free card to hit his FD. The downside to that is if he *does* have a FD, and it doesn't hit, you'r not getting any more $$s from him. The upside is that if he has a weaker made hand you can likely get the extra bet, since it's a terminal bet.

Which one is better depends on how you weight his range, but a b/b/b line with TPmehK is not one we want to take against all but the drooliest players.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:38 AM   #218
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My question about the KJc hand is when you raised pre (or just before), what limp/calling range did you assign him. Would he call with any sooted? You described him as generally tight, so I'm assuming you didn't perceive him as an "Oh well, I'm already in for five, might as well go in for 20" type...
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:24 PM   #219
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Guys I have a problem, I have a couple of regs who never fold to my flop cbets, and I usually get c/r or c/c down on low flops because according to them I am a nit, I cant have any of this flop...I get called with K4 on T9542 boards...how do u adjust to that? Play small pots? value bet middle pairs? I usually get raised at some point during the hand because they know I will fold alot...it's sickening

I know it's villain/situation dependent but generally, what kinda flops/textures/no of players to the flop do I cbet given my image? I just wanna get some thoughts on how to deal when facing uber aggression very frequently
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:43 PM   #220
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Loosen up a little in position or go to a card room with a bigger player pool.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:40 PM   #221
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Guys I have a problem, I have a couple of regs who never fold to my flop cbets, and I usually get c/r or c/c down on low flops because according to them I am a nit, I cant have any of this flop...I get called with K4 on T9542 boards...how do u adjust to that? Play small pots? value bet middle pairs? I usually get raised at some point during the hand because they know I will fold alot...it's sickening
I'd definitely start value betting lighter. I'd also start raising a little lighter so when they do call you down on low boards you'll have a better chance at actually having something, than just constantly c-bet/folding AK, AQ, etc. And with such a nitty image, if you start raising lighter, you can c-bet those A hi and K hi flops and boards and get them to fold.

When they usually raise you at some point in the hand, do you ever see what they are raising with? Are they doing it with air, draws, small pairs? If that's the case, and they're doing that because they know you fold a lot, then stop folding so much. Either start playing back at them a bit or start playing your stronger hands a little more passively and let them build a pot for you.

Quote:
I know it's villain/situation dependent but generally, what kinda flops/textures/no of players to the flop do I cbet given my image? I just wanna get some thoughts on how to deal when facing uber aggression very frequently
Like I said above, I would widen my opening range, take advantage of my nit image and bet those dry, high card boards.

Also, I don't know what stakes or how deep this game is, but 3 betting these guys light could be fairly profitable. Not necessarily super light, but if they think you're such a nit, they'll either fold pre, thinking the nit has a monster, or call and you can c-bet boards that should be hitting your perceived 3 betting range.

If your natural game is on the tight side, I wouldn't suggest going crazy trying to match their aggression. It can get very uncomfortable trying to play against good, or even decent, aggressive players. And when you're uncomfortable, that's when you make the most mistakes. I would suggest slowly putting some of these things into play.

I don't post on here often, because I've never been very good at putting my thoughts into words, so I hope this all makes sense(or at least a little bit).
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:37 PM   #222
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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My question about the KJc hand is when you raised pre (or just before), what limp/calling range did you assign him. Would he call with any sooted? You described him as generally tight, so I'm assuming you didn't perceive him as an "Oh well, I'm already in for five, might as well go in for 20" type...
77-22, KQ-JT, KJ, KT, QT, ATo, A9s-A2s. The weaker spectrum of hands from a standard LP opening range that he wouldn't want to play a bloated pot with oop.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:30 PM   #223
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Guys I have a problem, I have a couple of regs who never fold to my flop cbets, and I usually get c/r or c/c down on low flops because according to them I am a nit, I cant have any of this flop...
In addition to other's advice, you might want to re-evaluate how you play your pairs. Push them a little harder and don't be afraid to put your stack in when they are doing this.

Also, don't cbet with air nearly as much.

I wouldn't open your range so much, but add a few hands like 78s in your raising range also. Then you will hit a pair often when they put you on air. Play these guys in position too.

It has been helpful to me to make sure a bully knows that I will put the stack in frequently when I make it to the turn. This will reduce their float frequency too.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:35 AM   #224
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Hey guys, I'm having problems with a self proclaimed lol 1/2 live pro. Basically he's a stay at home dad with a gambling problem. IMHO he isn't a good poker player, but he sure knows how to push people's buttons and he LOVES doing it.

He's been running pretty good vs me for a few sessions, and as he's stacking his chips after his ~$60 got trippled up because he called over half his stack preflop with a low suited 2 gapper or something like that, he goes ON AND ON about equity and pot odds. Basically he feels the need to try and lol coach the rest of the table.

It's pretty silly and it should be funny, but it tilts the hell out of me. What do I do? How can I block this person out? He talks non stop trying to sell pirated porn or tvs or used cars, his mouth literally doesn't close ever. When he's running "bad" he talks EVEN more. Playing with this tool 3 days a week is mentally draining.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:37 AM   #225
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Grin -N- Bear IT View Post
Hey guys, I'm having problems with a self proclaimed lol 1/2 live pro. Basically he's a stay at home dad with a gambling problem. IMHO he isn't a good poker player, but he sure knows how to push people's buttons and he LOVES doing it.

He's been running pretty good vs me for a few sessions, and as he's stacking his chips after his ~$60 got trippled up because he called over half his stack preflop with a low suited 2 gapper or something like that, he goes ON AND ON about equity and pot odds. Basically he feels the need to try and lol coach the rest of the table.

It's pretty silly and it should be funny, but it tilts the hell out of me. What do I do? How can I block this person out? He talks non stop trying to sell pirated porn or tvs or used cars, his mouth literally doesn't close ever. When he's running "bad" he talks EVEN more. Playing with this tool 3 days a week is mentally draining.
can't you change tables?
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