Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-22-2013, 02:17 PM   #1351
Hustle247
banned
 
Hustle247's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 745
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
Oh yes, def different in live. Limping ranges are much stronger in live, so a chain of limps to you is not an invitation to iso-raise. You can raise, but it won't be isolating, since most of them will l/c. then you are playing a bloated pot multi-way with almost zero percent chance of taking it down with a c-bet.

That means that live you should have a much larger overlimping range and play those pots with position and good IOs if you hit a hand. I'd still be raising about 50% if it's folded to you, though.
This makes it all much more clear. I appreciate your great insight.

I have definitely noticed that many live players especially when you hit about 2-5 start limping very strong hands and pretty much play the hand through when you try to isolate them with junk and your left with pretty much no chance to win enough pots to make this move profitable. I definitely need to think about working an over limping range into my game and tone it down a little when playing live.
Hustle247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 09:22 PM   #1352
Hustle247
banned
 
Hustle247's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 745
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

For LLSNL do you guys feel that Pokerstove or Cardrunners EV is more accurate for ranging? Pokerstove puts more emphasis on broadways and Cardrunners EV puts more emphasis on small pocket pairs.
Hustle247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 09:52 PM   #1353
Hustle247
banned
 
Hustle247's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 745
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

How many buy-ins do you guys need to feel comfortable playing a certain stake?
Hustle247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 10:30 PM   #1354
WillowUfgood
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 325
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I guess this may be kind of noobish to ask, but I have a question about proper opening raise sizes for live poker vs online.

Online you get 2.2-3x BB almost always in cash poker. I am used to the rest of the action in the hand and sizing from experience. I have played a bunch of live lately and noticed a big difference. The standard raise is 4-8x BB, sometimes far more. My question is wether it is smarter to go along with the oversized openings or continue my 3x despite what all these people around me are doing?
WillowUfgood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 10:39 PM   #1355
Hustle247
banned
 
Hustle247's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 745
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowUfgood View Post
I guess this may be kind of noobish to ask, but I have a question about proper opening raise sizes for live poker vs online.

Online you get 2.2-3x BB almost always in cash poker. I am used to the rest of the action in the hand and sizing from experience. I have played a bunch of live lately and noticed a big difference. The standard raise is 4-8x BB, sometimes far more. My question is wether it is smarter to go along with the oversized openings or continue my 3x despite what all these people around me are doing?
Here is my recommendation. You need to size your raise depending on the goals you are looking to accomplish in the hand. If your table is real loose than you should be raising a tighter range and when you raise this tighter range it is good to raise the larger amount. This reduces the SPR making your decisions easier and getting you more value out of your range which is likely stronger than that of your opponents. On the other hand if you are at a table full of nits and your looking to steal and are playing a looser range you may very well want to see flops more cheaply by raising a lesser amount. Here you are looking to see flops cheaper, steal some pots without contest, and make some monster concealed hands to stack your opponents. The SPR will be smaller and you will not have to commit until you have a hand that justifies stacking off against your opponents tighter range in this ladder situation.

Last edited by Hustle247; 05-22-2013 at 10:46 PM.
Hustle247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 10:48 PM   #1356
WillowUfgood
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 325
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Thanks, that was my intuitive understanding as well. Just wanted some feedback.
WillowUfgood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2013, 10:58 PM   #1357
Garick
Oberbiergenießer
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 19,065
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hustle247 View Post
For LLSNL do you guys feel that Pokerstove or Cardrunners EV is more accurate for ranging? Pokerstove puts more emphasis on broadways and Cardrunners EV puts more emphasis on small pocket pairs.
I think you're getting confused here. Neither of these tools are for ranging, they are both for hot/cold EV.

Quote:
My question is wether it is smarter to go along with the oversized openings or continue my 3x despite what all these people around me are doing?
Depends on your goals for ranging and how good you are at ranging them post flop. I started live loling at them calling all my 3x's and then stacking off with overpairs because "no way they have 2p+ on a 853r flop." My question is wether it is smarter to go along with the oversized openings or continue my 3x despite what all these people around me are doing? Short version: they don't exploit, so raise huge for value with good hands and keep PF low with speculative hands when you can juice the pot any time if you hit.
Garick is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2013, 01:20 AM   #1358
Hustle247
banned
 
Hustle247's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 745
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
I think you're getting confused here. Neither of these tools are for ranging, they are both for hot/cold EV.



Depends on your goals for ranging and how good you are at ranging them post flop. I started live loling at them calling all my 3x's and then stacking off with overpairs because "no way they have 2p+ on a 853r flop." My question is wether it is smarter to go along with the oversized openings or continue my 3x despite what all these people around me are doing? Short version: they don't exploit, so raise huge for value with good hands and keep PF low with speculative hands when you can juice the pot any time if you hit.
Thanks for the clarification!
Hustle247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2013, 02:02 AM   #1359
Garick
Oberbiergenießer
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 19,065
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Oops. There was supposed to be a link there. https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-much-1158380/ Best of thread on the subject of raise sizing.
Garick is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 12:46 AM   #1360
Hustle247
banned
 
Hustle247's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 745
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

What is the longest losing streak you have had playing live poker?
Hustle247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 03:57 AM   #1361
corlath
veteran
 
corlath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Chocobo Farm
Posts: 2,189
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Not a strategy question. It seems like you're looking to find out how much of your losing streak is running bad, and how much of it is playing bad. The answer is, you can't really know *exactly* how much of each it is. What you can do, is ask the other kinds of questions you've been asking, and hopefully improve your play.

I dunno if anyone else has said this to you specifically, but it is said often and with good reason: bumhunt! Find the fishiest table, and play that. If you have three nights a week that a game is available, and one of them has mostly good players, *just don't play that night*. It's okay--poker will still be there on the other nights. Better to skip a night you'd probably lose, than to play because you "need hours".
corlath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 08:57 AM   #1362
sao
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: The Shed End
Posts: 553
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hustle247 View Post
What is the longest losing streak you have had playing live poker?
I am currently on a seven session losing streak at 1/2, stretching back to the start of April. However, almost all of my 1/2 "sessions" are an hour or less while I am waiting for a 2/5 seat to open up.

Over the same time period, I am running at a little more than $58/hr at 2/5, so I guess that I can't complain too much about my short-session runbad at 1/2 and my losing streak probably does not mean that I suck at the pokerz.

The point is: not all sessions are created equal and winning and losing streaks are heuristic illusions (sorry, gobbledy). Don't get caught up in winning and losing streaks; pay more attention to quality of decisions and longer-term trends.
sao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 10:33 AM   #1363
Hustle247
banned
 
Hustle247's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 745
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by sao View Post
Don't get caught up in winning and losing streaks; pay more attention to quality of decisions and longer-term trends.
Thank you very much for your advice. This is key right here and I will make sure to start implementing this as perfectly as I can.
Hustle247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 10:38 AM   #1364
Hustle247
banned
 
Hustle247's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 745
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by corlath View Post
Not a strategy question. It seems like you're looking to find out how much of your losing streak is running bad, and how much of it is playing bad. The answer is, you can't really know *exactly* how much of each it is. What you can do, is ask the other kinds of questions you've been asking, and hopefully improve your play.

I dunno if anyone else has said this to you specifically, but it is said often and with good reason: bumhunt! Find the fishiest table, and play that. If you have three nights a week that a game is available, and one of them has mostly good players, *just don't play that night*. It's okay--poker will still be there on the other nights. Better to skip a night you'd probably lose, than to play because you "need hours".
I certainly play just because I need hours. In Detroit the economy is horrible and the games are just horrendous sometimes. For example, there are times I may be sitting in a game where everyone else is just playing pocket pairs almost exclusively to hit a set and are gone if they miss. These games tilt the heck out of me and have caused me to donate a good amount. The are usually during the day and only sometimes at night. I cannot lie in that there are also times when the games are very good. This is where I obviously make my money. These games are usually at night. I really do need to start bumhunting more. I did this on the way up and it worked well. However, along the way I stopped doing it. Also, I plain and simple need to just leave games I will not win in regardless of the significant reasons I have. They unfortunately arise often as the games can be quite bad in the area.
Hustle247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 11:42 AM   #1365
Hustle247
banned
 
Hustle247's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 745
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

What would you guys consider a value raising range regardless of whether or not someone has entered the pot with a limp from EP (up to first 4 seats), MP (middle 3 seats), and LP (last three seats)? Do you guys feel in live LLSNL you should always raise or fold or do you feel we need to be limping some too?
Hustle247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 11:50 AM   #1366
Hustle247
banned
 
Hustle247's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 745
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I have typically been a poker book guy. I have dabbled in poker training videos and am now dabbling on 2+2 after lurking for years. Do you guys think I would be best served by just sticking to 2+2 and something like DC and stop reading the books or should I use some combination of them all to improve?
Hustle247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 12:31 PM   #1367
Garick
Oberbiergenießer
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 19,065
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I definitely have an overlimping range. In a typical loose-passive game, I often overlimp suited connectors, PPs<99, and AXs in EP, MP and sometimes (depending on the number of limpers. If it's just one, I'll raise) in LP. I'm looking to see a cheap flop, flop the nuts, and stack a donk. If I raise with those hands, most of the limpers limp/call, and then I have a bloated multi-way pot where I can't take it down with a c-bet and I might be pot committed if I hit a small piece of the board, so the variance is brutal.

I'll usually raise PPs 99 and greater, AT+, and any two broadway for value, but obv the earlier I am and/or the more limpers there are, the more the bottom part of that range becomes an overlimp.

As for sources, I find most training sites are not too helpful for LLSNL, because they induce FPS (by the standards of the tables). Books can be great, depending on the book. Read each book multiple times, as more will make sense each time. Obv I think this forum is hugely helpful, or I wouldn't be here.
Garick is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 12:37 PM   #1368
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 28,863
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
I definitely have an overlimping range. In a typical loose-passive game, I often overlimp suited connectors, PPs<99, and AXs in EP, MP and sometimes (depending on the number of limpers. If it's just one, I'll raise) in LP. I'm looking to see a cheap flop, flop the nuts, and stack a donk. If I raise with those hands, most of the limpers limp/call, and then I have a bloated multi-way pot where I can't take it down with a c-bet and I might be pot committed if I hit a small piece of the board, so the variance is brutal.

I'll usually raise PPs 99 and greater, AT+, and any two broadway for value, but obv the earlier I am and/or the more limpers there are, the more the bottom part of that range becomes an overlimp.
+1 (although my magic line for typically raising pocket pairs is TT due to it being able to back into nut straights while 99 can't, but whatever)

Gstack-a-donkG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 01:00 PM   #1369
Hustle247
banned
 
Hustle247's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 745
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Thanks Garick and Gobbledygeek! Your help is greatly appreciated!
Hustle247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 04:25 PM   #1370
Hustle247
banned
 
Hustle247's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 745
Can a 60bb bi be a profitable short stacking strategy at 2-5 if I consistently get the money in good on average and pick up dead money?
Hustle247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 05:02 PM   #1371
Garick
Oberbiergenießer
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 19,065
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
if I consistently get the money in good on average and pick up dead money?
In this case, any stacks can be profitable.

I find 60bbs to be too big for SS strat, and on the small side for normal strat.
Garick is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 05:05 PM   #1372
derada4
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,544
1 LP limper I make it 15 KhQh, BB and limper call.

QQ6 with two spades I bet 25 and the BB, late 50s, sort of nitty, ships 200 on top.

I tell him I have a very strong hand, and he shows me the Q. I say "yeah, I have one of those too".

Is this an insta call??
derada4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 05:07 PM   #1373
bip!
Slow Pony
 
bip!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: not on urban dictionary...
Posts: 13,011
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

30 bb or less is what I have always thought works for short stacking strategy.
bip! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 05:08 PM   #1374
bip!
Slow Pony
 
bip!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: not on urban dictionary...
Posts: 13,011
Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by derada4 View Post
1 LP limper I make it 15 KhQh, BB and limper call.

QQ6 with two spades I bet 25 and the BB, late 50s, sort of nitty, ships 200 on top.

I tell him I have a very strong hand, and he shows me the Q. I say "yeah, I have one of those too".

Is this an insta call??
I can't imagine he wants you to fold, so it seems like a trick with Q6... but whatever, I am calling.
bip! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 05:12 PM   #1375
derada4
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,544
Quote:
Originally Posted by bip! View Post
I can't imagine he wants you to fold, so it seems like a trick with Q6... but whatever, I am calling.
He wasn't really the kind of player to call 15 with Q6. Wasn't a total nit, but def on the nitty side.
derada4 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online