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Old 01-29-2012, 05:20 PM   #76
Schadenfred
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by PokahBlows View Post
Dude go with your read. The information is in your op. So
I know you had it at the table. Read and react: villain is a lag pot is going to be huge on the flop, lag overbets /bets strong no matter what. Then you invest a little oop could c/r flop.

LAG is never folding pre he is in position. Pot will be bloated and he gets to see how you react to the flop. Not a good plan oop.
So you think that LAG is never folding pre AND that there will likely be 3 villains seeing the flop SO calling out of position with QQ is your recommendation? Really? That is horrible on multiple levels.
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Pot will be bloated and he gets to see how you react to the flop. Not a good plan oop.
Yeah, I hate playing "bloated" pots heads-up with the third best starting hand.
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Old 01-29-2012, 05:27 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Schadenfred View Post
So you think that LAG is never folding pre AND that there will likely be 3 villains seeing the flop SO calling out of position with QQ is your recommendation? Really? That is horrible on multiple levels.

Yeah, I hate playing "bloated" pots heads-up with the third best starting hand.
Explain? My thinking is we risk the call pre. Lag cbets strong/overbets often. So the pot will be huge and we will have a hand we can play back with. Anything is else seems -EV oop.
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Old 01-29-2012, 05:50 PM   #78
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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I would flat vs the lag. If we 3bet we possibly scare him off. He often overbets or cbets often, so the turn will be hu no need to raise pre oop. Easy call and c/r favorable flops.
This is pretty bad. I hope you don't take my next statement as an insult but rather as a nudge in the right direction. I have noticed much of the advice you post is misguided. I would suggest hitting the books and shoring up your fundamentals. I really don't mean this as an insult and I apologize if it offends you.

As for the situation mentioned, Garick's analysis of his own situation is accurate. 3bet this and get it HU if possible. 4way pot from the SB is suicide.
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:00 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by TAOxEaglex View Post
This is pretty bad. I hope you don't take my next statement as an insult but rather as a nudge in the right direction. I have noticed much of the advice you post is misguided. I would suggest hitting the books and shoring up your fundamentals. I really don't mean this as an insult and I apologize if it offends you.

As for the situation mentioned, Garick's analysis of his own situation is accurate. 3bet this and get it HU if possible. 4way pot from the SB is suicide.
If you think its only one way to play this hand. Then maybe you need to go back to the books.

I didn't say you was wrong, just that we can take an alternate line knowing villain will apply the pressure otf with overbets and strong cbets. We can back him in a corner where he has to stack off. Its about a little investment to win more in return.
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Old 01-29-2012, 08:22 PM   #80
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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We can back him in a corner where he has to stack off.
In all honesty, I am not comfortable stacking off 250BBs deep with a one pair hand, esp as this guy has shown down at LEAST TPTK when he's gone to showdown. And I really don't want to play this thing 4 ways OOP.

So... Assuming that we are going to 3-bet, what sizing do we like?
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Old 01-29-2012, 08:46 PM   #81
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Pokah, so your plan is to play QQ as bluff catcher, set-mine, or bomb the flop and hoping one of the 3 villains will call with worse?

I would like to hear more of your thought process, because it will help me to understand tight passive players better.
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Old 01-29-2012, 08:47 PM   #82
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I don't think there is a clear cut better option here. A lot of it depends on reads.

If you think the LAG is going to call a 3bet with anything he raised with as pokahblows suggest, I think it's a pretty obvious 3bet because of the enormous value there is.

If your 3bet is going to get a tonne of respect, or you expect the lag to bluff raise and put you in a lot of bad spots when you 3bet, flatting could be better.
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Old 01-29-2012, 09:56 PM   #83
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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I don't think there is a clear cut better option here. A lot of it depends on reads.

If you think the LAG is going to call a 3bet with anything he raised with as pokahblows suggest, I think it's a pretty obvious 3bet because of the enormous value there is.

If your 3bet is going to get a tonne of respect, or you expect the lag to bluff raise and put you in a lot of bad spots when you 3bet, flatting could be better.
^^This

Depends on how the thinking LAG perceives your 3bet. You said little to no 3betting happens preflop. If your image is as described, then your 3bet broadcasts a very narrow range. So A thinking LAG would either fold pre or play almost perfectly against you on the flop in position.

Raising is obv the standard line most of the time, but not here...not against a thinking LAG when he has position on you AND he realizes you have a solid image and you won't stack off with one pair.

A Table that has villains like V1 and V3 should also have some considerations here. Yeah, it sucks to play a premium PP 4ways, but you can play good post-flop poker.

If you 3bet you lose V1 and V3 and have to be prepared to b/f on most flops against the LAG (if he calls)

FWIW, I think playing tight passive against a good/great LAG can be very +EV in certain situations and this is one of them
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:15 PM   #84
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Ok, I'll roll with tight passive, so what are you plans for:

1. J-high or smaller board, non-paired.
2. J-high or smaller board, paired.
3. A/K high board.
4. Monotone board.
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:29 PM   #85
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Ok, I'll roll with tight passive, so what are you plans for:

1. J-high or smaller board, non-paired.
2. J-high or smaller board, paired.
3. A/K high board.
4. Monotone board.
It really depends on who/how many see the flop.

I think Garick said the LAG overbet cbets with near certainty, so I would ch/call flop on most boards. Also, we get to see what V1 and V3 would do.
Beyond that really depends how many see turn. Let's see how Garick develops this hand. i think this would have been a good PAHWM because of the dynamics discussed
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:31 PM   #86
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Well, here's a major problem. We are in SB and aggressor is the button, so we won't get to see what V1 or V3 might do, because they're likely checking their entire range as well.
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:32 PM   #87
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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So A thinking LAG would either fold pre or play almost perfectly against you on the flop in position.
A fold is good. We are in the SB and the longer the hand goes on, the longer our positional disadvantage manifests itself.

Saying a LAG can "play perfectly" against us if we 3bet is a huge overstatement and assumption. What does that even mean?

I can't believe there is any ambiguity with this situation. Most of the time any given situation can be handled in multiple ways but I don't think this is one of them.

4way pot OOP with QQ? Really guys? Really? Too much attention is being focused on one player and not the entire situation. Our read on one player is less important than the threat of letting other 2 players have position on us.
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:36 PM   #88
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by TAOxEaglex View Post
A fold is good.
A fold is not good. I mean, we win the hand. But we don't win the most. We are going to win more by flatting than getting folds.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't 3bet, but it should definitely not be because we want to end the hand. Save that for when we have 85s or something. We want a call if we 3bet.
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:41 PM   #89
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by TAOxEaglex View Post

Saying a LAG can "play perfectly" against us if we 3bet is a huge overstatement and assumption. What does that even mean?
1) OP said little to no 3betting occurs at this table
2) OP has a solid image

What does the above two pieces of information tell you about OP''s 3bet range?

Your villain is a thinking LAG. He can put 2+2 (no pun intended) together and decide which flops he is going to continue with, and which ones he can apply pressure on knowing OP isn't going to stack off with 1pair

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I can't believe there is any ambiguity with this situation.
I'm just looking at this particular hand, given the dynamics presented. I don't auto decide what I do every time I wake up with a great hand. Note, this is different than FPS (which I'm not a fan of). If you see flatting here as FPS, then we can agree to disagree
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:47 PM   #90
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Well, here's a major problem. We are in SB and aggressor is the button, so we won't get to see what V1 or V3 might do, because they're likely checking their entire range as well.
V3 has obv tells (from OP) and both v1 and v3 overvalue TP type hands.
I think it's safe to WANT v1 and v3 in on most flops. Keep in mind, our hand is super under rep'd.
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:50 PM   #91
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

We also don't have to check to the aggressor. OP said "cbets are often overbets" or something to that effect. He didn't say the guy cbets multiway every time.
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:51 PM   #92
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I agree with everything that is being said about being able to play against the LAG better if you call. That isn't the point though. Notice how everyone that supports calling focused solely on the LAG and said nothing else about the entire situation. Some serious tunnel vision going on here.

There is no way that outplaying this LAG outweighs the importance of not allowing two other players to get in this hand behind us.

Maybe I'm just not as confident as you guys are in my OOP 4way postflop play (I'm not being sarcastic).
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:52 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by SeaUlater View Post
Pokah, so your plan is to play QQ as bluff catcher, set-mine, or bomb the flop and hoping one of the 3 villains will call with worse?

I would like to hear more of your thought process, because it will help me to understand tight passive players better.
I'm not a tight passive player. But I am a position nit vs a player who is going to bomb the flop/overbet 100% of the time. He will do all the pushing otf. After he gets done we can c/r for value. With this line we win the most money.

Despite playing against the other players. The lag will make they're lives miserable and we can put him in a bad spot. Instead of raising and letting him see how we react first.

Say the lag's pfr was from ep. I would 3bet all day. But the dynamics of the hand allows us to take alternate lines.
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:53 PM   #94
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Another plan to go with 3-bet is that we are in a very good position to be the aggressor.

Two scenarios:

1. V1 and V3, one of them or both called. Now we are dealing with SPR at less than 1 for either villain.

We c-bet the flop, one of them or both of them shove, V2 is forced to act faced up.

2. Only V2 called. We now have the option to value bet or switch gear and play bluff catcher.
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:55 PM   #95
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V3 has obv tells (from OP) and both v1 and v3 overvalue TP type hands.
I think it's safe to WANT v1 and v3 in on most flops. Keep in mind, our hand is super under rep'd.
I think you're missing the point I was making. My point is that we do not get to see what other two villains will do, because they are acting behind us, and we are first to act after the aggressor.
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:56 PM   #96
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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We also don't have to check to the aggressor. OP said "cbets are often overbets" or something to that effect. He didn't say the guy cbets multiway every time.
Agreed. However, in my estimation most good+ LAGS do cbet in this spot. I mean, he has two fish and a decent player (who hasn't represented much strength) in the hand and he has the button. He would take a stab at it on flop most of the time. I would lead if flop is super wet, though
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:58 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by PokahBlows View Post
I'm not a tight passive player. But I am a position nit vs a player who is going to bomb the flop/overbet 100% of the time. He will do all the pushing otf. After he gets done we can c/r for value. With this line we win the most money.

Despite playing against the other players. The lag will make they're lives miserable and we can put him in a bad spot. Instead of raising and letting him see how we react first.

Say the lag's pfr was from ep. I would 3bet all day. But the dynamics of the hand allows us to take alternate lines.
Well, it would be good if you can answer the post where I asked what hero should do in a list of scenarios.

I think you are grossly overlooking the presence of two other villains in this hand.

This is an example of hero over-adjusting to one player and exposing himself to others.
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:10 PM   #98
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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I think you're missing the point I was making. My point is that we do not get to see what other two villains will do, because they are acting behind us, and we are first to act after the aggressor.
SeeU...sorry if I wasn't being clear. My point is I'm not particularly threatened by the presence of V1 and V3 for two reasons:

1) V1 and V3 have $120 and $200 behind. Against a cbet from the LAG and a call from hero, even if they shove we get to see what the LAG does before committing what would be an inconsequential amount of money relative to the size of the pot (in essence a less than PSB) So, their position is actually good because the LAG has to act before we do to a shove.

2) LP players don't shove without the nuts/near nuts
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:15 PM   #99
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

1. I am not worried much about V1 and V3's shove, and on most flop, that is almost what we want, provided that V2 folds.

However, these two villains are more likely to call the c-bet than to shove AI, then we're at a even worse situation with 4 players and bloated pot going to the turn.

2. I agree, hence the reason why I don't think the likelihood of V1 or V3 shoving is high, but if we 3-bet pre-flop, they will shove with any piece of the board because they're "committed".
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:20 PM   #100
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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2. I agree, hence the reason why I don't think the likelihood of V1 or V3 shoving is high, but if we 3-bet pre-flop, they will shove with any piece of the board because they're "committed".
Again, it's so hypothetical and it really depends on reads. However, I don't think the chances of V1 and V3 coming along to a 3bet pre are all that high, given that the LAG is still left to act
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